Inside Grindr: Sex, Secrets & Who’s Really There

Grindr isn’t just a hookup app—it’s where identity, secrecy, and desire collide. In this episode of Talk Sex with Annette, I sit down with Zach Zane, author of Boyslut and the official Sex & Relationship Expert for Grindr, to talk about what’s really happening on the world’s most infamous app.

We’re diving into the truth about discreet profiles, married and “straight” men exploring in secret, and how Grindr has evolved from quick meetups to a space where love, power, and vulnerability all play out in real time.

Zach also shares what bisexuality looks like inside gay spaces, how cruising culture started, and the surprising ways queer men are using Grindr to find connection, community, and even long-term partners.

If you’ve ever wondered who’s actually on the grid—and what it reveals about men, shame, and modern desire—this one’s for you.

Find Out More About Zach Here: https://www.zacharyzane.com/

🎧 Listen to more episodes of Talk Sex with Annette:
https://www.youtube.com/@talksexwithannette

🔞 Want demos, how-tos & guided self-pleasure meditations?
Join me on OnlyFans →https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/
Subscribe to my Substack → https://talksexwithannette.substack.com/
Subscribe to my e-newsletter: https://she-explores-life.ck.page/e9760c390c

💌 Work with me

Use code EXPLORES15 for 15% off all Womanizer Products at Womanizer.com.

Get 30% Off Sex Toys & Lube with code EXPLORES30
at thethruster.com: https://bit.ly/3Xsj5wY

Get 15% Off The Life Saving, Erection Enhancing Tech Cockring By Firmtech with my code ANNETTE15 at: https://myfirmtech.com/annettebenedetti

Get 15% Off The Life Saving, Erection Enhancing Tech Cockring By Firmtech with my code ANNETTE15 at: https://myfirmtech.com/annettebenedetti

Get your intimacy questions answered, enjoy erotic audio readings and more.
https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/

Chapters

• 0:00 New Name, Same Candid Mission
• 4:04 Setting The Stage: Grindr’s Reputation
• 7:29 Meet Zachary Zane And His Work
• 11:43 Grindr Then And Now
• 16:03 Politics, Discretion, And The RNC Rumor
• 20:33 Who’s Really On The App
• 25:38 Hookups, Love, And How Relationships Start
• 32:14 Lesbians, Gay Men, And Dating Tropes
• 36:39 Bisexuality And Being Out On Grindr
• 41:54 Anonymity, Profiles, And Tags
• 48:23 Clarity Wins: Building Better Bios
• 53:03 Safety, Screening, And Meeting Up
• 58:13 Testing, PrEP, Doxy-PEP, And Risk

Transcript

SPEAKER_00: 0:46

I'm Annette Benedetti, host of the podcast formerly known as Locker Room Talk and Shots. The show has a new name, Talk Sex with Annette. But at its core, this is still your locker room. It's where we strip away shame, get curious, and speak the unspoken about sex, kink, dating, pleasure, and desire. Around here, nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chats, our most trusted friends, and of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest, and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. If you've been here from the beginning, thank you. And if you're new, welcome to my podcast where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Now, let's talk about sex. Cheers. Ranglo. Today's Talk Sex with a Net topic is Grinder. Sex, secrets, and the men you don't expect to find on the grid. What if the most infamous hookup app on the planet isn't just about sex, but about everything we hide? Grinder is known as a queer hookup app. But open it on any given night and you'll find more than just out gay men. You'll find discreet profiles, married men, guys who say they're straight or just curious. Sometimes even politicians and conservative Christian men are trying to keep their desires under wrap. This app has become a cultural lightning rod because it's not just a place to meet up, it's where identity, shame, and desire collide. And today we're pulling that curtain all the way back. My guest is Zachary Zayn, author of Boy Slot, a Memoir and Manifesto. Men's health sex columnist, cosmopolitan's non-monogamy columnist, and the official sex and relationship expert for Grindr. He's also one of the most visible bisexual voices in the country with bylines in the New York Times, Rolling Stone, Playboy, GQ, and more. Impressive. We're talking about what Grinder really reveals about desire, power, secrecy, and how bisexuality fits into a space built for gay men, but used by a whole lot more people than you think. Now, before we dive in, and I know you're excited to dive in because I am, I want to remind y'all that I'm over on OnlyFans, and there I'm sharing my sex and intimacy how-tos, demos, and audio guided self-pleasure meditations, along with an opportunity for a little one-on-one coaching. If you are not ready to subscribe to an entire regimen, if you will, of sex and intimacy coaching. You can go over there and ask me singular questions. You can also find me over on Substack doing the same, except for, of course, the demos and the coaching. And you can find me in both places under my handle at TalkSex with a net. If you want to scroll down to the notes section below this, and you're going to find links to find me everywhere you want to find me, and I look forward to seeing you there. But for now, Zach, can you tell my listeners a little bit more about you?

SPEAKER_02: 3:55

Sure, yeah. I feel like that was a good sum up. So I write a lot about bisexuality, queer sex, polyamory kink. My book, Boy Slut, is a book about how to overcome sexual shame. And it's a memoir and it's our collection of essays, whatever you want to call it. It's kind of how I went from a place of such immense shame to being this proud, open, bisexual, sex positive, kinky motherfucker that I am today. But yeah, right now, the main thing I'm focusing on outside of writing for places and working with Grindr is my Substack, which I also have. It used to be a non-fiction erotica Substack. So real sex stories that happen to me, and then I have a slew of other writers, you know, a dozen plus other writers. And now I've expanded it to like fictional, traditional erotica as well. But the idea behind this is it's not just smut for smut's sake, although nothing is wrong with that. But like in every story, you kind of learn about yourself through it, or it speaks to the intersection of sex and technology or sex and modern dating. There's always like an overarching narrative and kind of like a bigger thing that you kind of learn about yourself through it. Well, also it being the horny, well-written literary smut. So that's kind of been my main focus for these past years or so, which has been a lot of fun.

SPEAKER_00: 5:12

So, folks, of course, I'm gonna tell you where to find him on Substack by the end of this podcast. And we all love smut. I mean, I know my listeners, I know you guys do. I know that you're showing up every week because it's a little smutty over here. So we will make sure that you get to the link to that by the end of this. But more than that, you should stay to the end. Well, first of all, because who doesn't want to know more about grindr and the grind secret, which I will be asking about? But also, if you are someone who's been curious about getting on grinder, or you're someone who's navigating your own identity, by the end of this podcast, you're gonna have, of course, some takeaways, a little guidance, if you will, to what to do next. You're also gonna know what to expect if you're thinking about jumping on the app. I have no fucking idea. I'm going into this blind. I I actually know nothing about this topic, which, you know, is unique for me when I'm interviewing someone. So this is exciting for me. I'm also really thrilled as a openly bisexual panqueer woman to have a counterpart here, if you will.

SPEAKER_01: 6:20

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00: 6:21

Miserate on what it's like to be bisexual in queer spaces, especially queer spaces designed by, well, in my case, typically lesbians, or gay men. And how does that all pan out? So I'm I'm just excited. I'm ready to talk about grinder.

SPEAKER_02: 6:39

Let's do it. Yeah, let's start.

SPEAKER_00: 6:43

Let's talk about grinder. Cheers.

SPEAKER_02: 6:47

Cheers.

SPEAKER_00: 6:49

My cup. Says today I want to be top or bottom. And mine lies because it says I want to be a bottom, but I'm very toppy today, so just warning you. We're gonna start at the basic level here. Explain grinder to me. I also only know it by the reputation, which is it's where gay queer men go to hook up and do all kinds of fun, dirty sex. But what is grind really?

SPEAKER_02: 7:19

Yeah, I mean, I think grind has evolved over the years. It started in, I'm trying to remember correctly, around 2009. So it's been about 15 years. And I think initially it was the first like geolocation app. So it was the first one to let you know how far people were away from you and feet. And it was more of a hookup app. And that was the purpose kind of behind it. And now it absolutely can be a hookup app, but what they talk about is kind of having they they always talk about having the gaberhood in your pocket, is what it is. So it's not just for sex, it can be used for that. It can, and they even now have this right now feature where you click on it and then you actually see like a map layout of where everyone is on the map. So if you're trying to cruise or hook up with someone, it actually lets you know where they are, especially if you're looking for like, you know, casual sex right now. But it's where queer men meet their husbands. You know, it's where it's also a serious dating app. It's also, you know, they just had the grinder pleasure ball, which is their annual kind of Halloween event. And the purpose of this is hey, we want to connect people in real life. We want to have you have this Gaberhood in your pocket. We want to expand the Gaborhood to the real world and not just be digital, but combine having community digitally and then in person. So, yeah, it has since expanded. It's this cultural phenomenon, right? So, yes, it absolutely can be used for sex. I use it for sex all the time. It's phenomenal, but it really is so much more than that, and a way for people to connect, especially queer men. You know, I think like I'm very lucky. I grew up in Los Angeles, I live in New York now. I live in these like gay metropolitans where it's really okay to be out as gay and queer. Of course, there's still safety risks. I'm not saying there isn't, but like, you know, compared that to from middle of nowhere, Alabama, it can be really hard to connect with other queer men. And obviously a lot of people might not be out, they might be discreet, and this gives you an opportunity to do so. But even in cities like New York, if so much of the social scene is like gay bars. And if you're someone, let's say you're sober, you just don't like partying, you don't want to go to a place at 1 a.m., you're more of a gamer, you're more of an introvert. It allows you another opportunity to meet gay men because it's still, even in big cities, can be hard, especially if you're not someone who wants to go out to the gay bars, because that's where we tend to congregate. So it's a way to explore your identity, it's a way to meet other people, it's a way to have casual sex, it's a way to have love. It's kind of whatever you make of it. And that's one of the special things about Grindr.

SPEAKER_00: 10:24

All right. So I'm just going to jump into what everybody wants to know because it's why Grindr is oftentimes in the headlines of the news. What is it true? Is it true the stories about it crashing when Republican conventions come into town?

SPEAKER_02: 10:44

I believe the RNC one is true. I I've heard, I'm not 100% sure. There was one recently that I think they dispelled. Oh, I think they were saying it like was that the Kings rally? There was one recently where Grinder noted, like, hey, no, we we did not crash here. But at the RNC, I know that is a either it actually has crashed, I'm not exactly sure. Regardless, I I know men who go down on Grindr looking like during the RNC, you know, knowing, especially if they're sex workers, that they might be able to get to get work through politicians there. But regardless, I it the it is packed. Whether or not it crashes or not, it is absolutely packed at the RNC.

SPEAKER_00: 11:30

So it is true. And look, I'm just gonna say, as a liberal, very liberal out woman, I'm like catnip for conservative men. So I can only assume that this translates over to conservative men who are maybe struggling with their own identity or trying to hide it or whatever it is. So my question is do you find that who is on the app includes a decent number of people who are not just out gay men, but obviously also bisexual men, and then men who are struggling with their identity or hiding it for one reason or the other? May that be politicians or Christian conservatives. What are your thoughts on that?

SPEAKER_02: 12:28

Yeah, an ant such as Grinder that's been around for so long, that's such this cultural institution, it's gonna have everybody. So you definitely have the out-gay men, the out-by men, the out-trans men, the out-trans women, non-binary people, people who are very comfortable with their sexuality. Then you have the people who are not out for whatever reason, it would be unsafe to do so, their family would kick them out, maybe they are married. And then, of course, you you you do have some closeted politicians, but I think I'm just reticent and almost talking about this just because I don't want to give this idea that this is this duplicitous app of everyone lying. Yes, that does exist. Of course, it does, and people cheating, but I'd say the vast majority are still just queer men looking to connect, and some of them might be out, some of them might not. And it offers a safe space for you if you are not out and you want to explore. And I'm hopefully those people who are not out are, you know, voting for LGBT rights. They're not actively discriminating against us here. Like, I don't want to demonize being closeted either or being discreet either, but at the same time, if you're discreet and closeted and then attacking the LGBTQ community, of course, I do take a problem with that. It runs the gamut. Yeah, it it everyone is on there.

SPEAKER_00: 13:41

It sounds to me like it's any other dating app. Or if you've got your as far as married men, like that is not unique to a queer dating site. Tender is notorious for having married men or men who are hiding something or people and and I'm sure women as well, although I feel like there's not as much of a spotlight on that. So to address sort of all the rumors around it, I think to me it sounds like it's like any other app as far as the numbers who are showing up secretly for whatever reason they have.

SPEAKER_02: 14:21

Yeah. No, people cheat. People are dishonest. You know what I mean? And that's part of it. And for many, that is a kink. You know, I'm not going to pretend that removing the ethics from it, you know, whether you find it ethical or not ethical. But it's like, of course, there's a contingent of gay men who find it really hot to sleep with married men. And so it's, you know, finding the pairs. And then of course there are gay men who are like, that I feel terrible about this. This is wrong. I don't want to sleep with someone who's cheating. But I think many people do have a cheating kink, and you're able to explore that. And yeah, I'm not going to describe whether this is moral, ethical, or not. I feel like that's up to each person to decide themselves.

SPEAKER_00: 14:57

What an interesting topic. I hadn't even thought about cheating as a kink, but it most definitely is. Yeah. From your position, it it started as more of a hookup app. And it has that reputation. But it sounds to me like now it's also just an app where if you're also looking for a long-term partner, you can find someone who wants that as well.

SPEAKER_02: 15:21

And I think a lot of the time, and this is true for some people of the straight community of the straight community. That's so funny to say that. But I think gay men in particular, we often will have sex first, and then the emotions might come later. And so and I think it's in part because the emotions can come because they are tied into sex. You have this passionate, incredible sexual experience. You start feeling emotions for someone, or just like, yeah, you're able to have that intimacy, and then over time you get to know each other. So I think a lot, while there definitely are the ones on Grinder who are like, hey, let's go out to a bar first and date that way. I know I've had long-term partners that I've met on Grindr. And what usually happens is we have sex, not that long, whatever. They're in and out of my apartment within 30 minutes. It was good. I hit them up maybe two weeks later. This happens again. And then around the third or fourth time, they might not necessarily leave the moment after having sex. We might just stick around and talk for a little bit. And I've said maybe after the third or fourth time having sex, hey, you seem cool, no pressure. Do you want to go on a date? If you want to keep things just like this, I'm happy to do that too. And I think every time I've said that, they've always said yes, in part because I read the vibe. I wouldn't have necessarily asked that if I didn't think they were also into me too. But so I think often we kind of meet through initially having sex and then develop the emotions in a more committed relationship later, as opposed to going on three dates, having that, and then having sex. And I think grinder really facilitates that within like the larger queer community.

SPEAKER_00: 16:53

It's fascinating to me. I feel like when I'm dating queer women, we we have to do the opposite because it's like you have sex and then it's like you haul. It's like, okay, we had sex, now we're together. And as a bisexual woman, my experience because I have dated more than one gender, when I go on a date with a lesbian and they like want it to go straight to relationship. I'm like, whoa. I mean, I'm used to dating men who like, you know, it's a totally opposite experience. But then I date women and it's like, oh my God, I better not be too sweet, or I'm gonna be like, you know.

SPEAKER_02: 17:30

You'll be you hauling it before you know it. You'll you'll have four cats together. It's like, I don't want to necessarily like do a broader stereotype, but I I think there's some truth in this. Like, absolutely. And I always say that like gay men can learn from lesbians and lesbians can learn from gay men. And that what lesbians can learn from gay men is like how to have casual sex. Obviously, there are plenty of lesbians who do have casual sex, but to have a meaningful sexual experience and then be like, hey, I appreciate that for what it was. A meaningful sexual experience doesn't mean I love this person, doesn't mean I want to marry them. I think gay men are too good at casual sex. And I think we need to be like, oh, we had this casual sex, and yes, we have barriers and walls up. What if I tried to go on a date with this person? What if we've been sleeping together for four years? Maybe I called them my boyfriend, you know, whatever it is. And again, there are plenty of, you know, queer men. I don't want to make it seem like all gay men have intimacy issues or all lesbians are trying to U-Haul, but I but I think I think those tropes exist for a reason. And I think, yeah, I think there are things that the gay community can learn from the lesbian community, and vice versa.

SPEAKER_00: 18:36

Here's what I'd also say as much as you know, you don't want to make generalizations. I think almost all of us would say some of these generalizations are there for a reason. Like I think everyone unanimously agrees. I am dating a lesbian right now, and trust me, the the lesbian bipan jokes are never ending, and we're constantly discussing how they also are there for a reason, right? And how different sometimes my experience is from her experience. So that brings me to being curious about you as a bisexual man on an app that was, I'm going to assume, created primarily primarily for at the time, gay or by gay men, or it was seen as a an app for gay men. How has that experience been for you, or has it has your sexuality not been an issue?

SPEAKER_02: 19:30

It's I wouldn't say it was primarily a gap for gay men. I'd say it was always an app for men who like men. You know, they call it MLM. And so it was always an app for whether or not you were gay or not. Like I think they knew, again, I wasn't around there 15 years ago, but I'm pretty sure they knew their audience pretty on, or they saw the number of bisexual men, they saw the mumble of discreet men. And I think like it welcomed all of these people, not just out men. And it's been doing that since 2009. So I would argue that really hasn't necessarily changed, that they've always kind of been for queer men and also for trans women too. Like, like you might find once in a while, like a cisgender straight woman on the app. And usually it's in the context of like a by couple looking for, it's like, hey, this is my partner looking for a third. Once in a while, you just have a solo, and I respect it. Like, I had a friend who did it once. It's like it's really not for straight cis woman, I would say. But she goes on, she's like, I'm looking for all the bye dudes. I want to get dicked down. And she cleaned the fuck up because, you know, I think a lot of times, especially by men, we tend to or often can have just more cat sex with men than women because it is easier. Because you can hop on grinder and just do it. You know, you can go to a gym locker room and cruise and get your dick sucked. You know, it's it's it's so much more easily accessible to have sex with men than women. It's not necessarily a desire to have more sex with men, it's just like that these are the opportunities that arise. So when an opportunity arises to have sex with a woman and it's kind of made as simple or straightforward as on Grindr, my friends have cleaned the fuck up. And I'm like, I just you know, that sex relationship by Grinder, I'm like, I I guess I like it's not it's clearly not an issue. It's not like it's swarming with cis women and there are cis straight women who are you know ruining the app and the culture of it. If it was, I might discourage them. But I'm like, you are truly one in a billion. Have fun for this. But in that regard, no, it's always been for any man or trans woman who is looking to have sex with men.

SPEAKER_00: 21:39

So straight women or bi women who are into by men, we shouldn't publicize go there because you're yeah, oh god, I bet too. Gay men and bi men, you guys take care of yourself. Oh, okay. Straight men, like, look, I'm no, no, no, no. This is my area of specialty. Straight men, especially middle-aged, 30s, mid-30s and up, they do not take care of themselves. And we're always looking at you know, the gorgeous, like, queer men going, uh, why can't straight men do this? Why can't they last pride? I ended up in on a dance floor packed with queer men, shirts off, chests glistening, smell that place smelled so damn good. And I was like, this is so unfair to women that are having sex with straight men. To not look, I don't want to ruin grinder for you guys, but I mean, apparently.

SPEAKER_02: 22:39

I again I can't support that necessarily, but you can do what you want to do, and you'll probably clean up. But I know I'm not trying to have a swarm of straight women, but it really is wild. I'll be at events. I'll yeah, as I mentioned, I live in New York. I'll just go out to like a bar, a gay bar, and I'll look around or like a circuit party if you're familiar. It's kind of like these gay dance parties, and like every guy is beautiful. And I'm I'm like, it literally is. I'm like, it's like, and I remember first stepping into it, and I'm a good looking dude too. I am muscular, I'm pretty like I'm not trying to say like like it's like I I know that, but still it is to this day. And I've been going to gay bars since I was 18, since we actually before I was 18, before I even came out and all that stuff, it it is still overwhelming at times where just like the amount of fucking beauty, and it takes work. This is not we're not Beyonce, we don't wake up like this. Like, this is a skincare routine, this is going to the gym, this is the stuff that every woman since the dawn of mankind has done, and now just game and I know, man. But it's like, yeah, these things don't happen by accident overnight, like they're putting in the effort. And we have the cleanest assholes. I know so many straight men who are in their 30s, 40s, and like a friend of mine, you know, friends that are pro-job and they hook up with them, they're pegging them, they go, like, they never clean their asshole, they have no idea how to clean their asshole. And it's like, ooh, that that's that's a kink in of itself, not kink shaming, not necessarily my kink, but it's like gay men, shockingly the cleanest assholes in the history of assholes.

SPEAKER_00: 24:14

I want to rewind. You made a comment for a by men that it's easier to hook up with men, which is funny, as a by woman, I would also say the same. Like it's so much easier for me to meet a man than it is for me to meet a woman. And so it's very interesting to me that you and I have like a you know, uh a similar take on that.

SPEAKER_02: 24:42

Yeah, it's and you're not the first person I've heard this from. You know, I think a lot of by women, it's just because I mean, the men are just socialized to be more aggressive, I think generally. You know what I mean? In terms of flirting, to be the ones that are going out and flirting and doing that. So if you're not used to necessarily being the the, I don't want to say aggressor, that sounds that's not the right word. Bold.

SPEAKER_01: 25:04

Yeah, bold person.

SPEAKER_02: 25:06

Obviously, like women's sexuality is so much more shamed than male sexuality. So because of that, you might not feel comfortable hooking up on a first date because you're afraid of slut shaming. And gay men, obviously, they're slut shaming within the community, but it's very different. It's a very different thing. But I just think there are multiple reasons why, regardless of your gender, you know, my gender or yours, it's just easier to hook up with men point blank.

SPEAKER_00: 25:30

So as a bi-man on grinder, do you post that you're bisexual? In your profile when you set up is that something you're you're open about?

SPEAKER_02: 25:41

Yeah, so there are tags on grind too, where you can list among like, well, first you can list like, you know, your sexual position. Are you top, verse top, verse bottom? You can list like tags in terms of like kinks that turn you on, whether it is pits is one, I think water sports is one. Like armpits, yeah. Okay. Water sports, threesomes, anonymous, you know, there are a bunch of tags. And then there's also like a sexuality tab. Two, so you're able to list that you're bisexual. And I do that for a couple reasons. Number one, I want to know like for like trans women, I'm also attracted to them. You know, I don't want them to think I'm a gay man. I want the guys who are in a relationship with a woman and want to threesome to hit me up to know like it's that. And then there are men who find bisexuality really hot, who kind of fetishize us in a way, because maybe for a slightly problematic reason of they find it like hot that I hook up with men and that somehow or sorry, and I hook up with women and that somehow somehow makes me more masculine. It does not. But if they have a bisexual kink, I kind of like I I like that. I like being fetishized for that. So I like playing in with it. And then it's also if on the off chance we do end up dating, I don't have to come out to them later. You know, like so I don't know if when we first have sex, if I'm gonna see you again after this. But if the sex is good, as I mentioned, we might, we might end up dating. And if they already know from the get-go, okay, that means they're comfortable dating a bi-man, which not all gay men are, truthfully. So it kind of yeah, it lets them know beforehand. So I don't have to have like a bigger coming out later.

SPEAKER_00: 27:18

Yeah, uh, that I relate to that. How often do you experience biphobia on the app?

SPEAKER_02: 27:28

Not often, actually. I've had a lot more biphobia on not quote unquote gay or queer apps or on Tinder or Bumble or whatever it is, in part because it usually comes from like cis women who don't feel comfortable. But also, there are just so many by men on the app who list that they are bi. Like I should have asked Grinder what the breakdown is, because they they do have that data. But if I had to guess, it's like at least a quarter, if not a third. You know, so it's not like maybe if it was 1% of us, we might get more shit. But like this app, in part, yes, it was created for gay men and queer men, but it was in part created for by men. So if there's like a better, I can't think of a better app where you're not gonna receive bullshit for being by receive other bullshit. I'm not gonna say you won't, you know, especially with anonymity can come people being their most brutal and not kindest or best selves.

SPEAKER_00: 28:21

So this app allows for anonymity.

SPEAKER_02: 28:24

Yes.

SPEAKER_00: 28:25

Okay, so you don't put necessarily your real name or you can do either.

SPEAKER_02: 28:31

So you have a regular profile picture, and that could just be that could be your face. That could just be your torso if you just want to show off your body without your face, or it could just be a blank profile. And so they're the people who seek anonymous sex and don't want to share their face for whatever reason, and they talk to other people like this, and then they're the men that need to see a face, and often in their profile they put M P N C, which means no pick, no chat. So that way, letting you know, hey, I'm not looking for anonymous hookup, I want to see your faces, I want to see who I'm gonna be kissing. So you can kind of go always, yeah. I feel like if there's one takeaway from Grindr among the many I've said, it's always like a choose your own adventure. I really do believe that you can find whatever it is that you're looking for, whether that's anonymous sex, a serious relationship, friends, whatever it is. And that's what kind of makes it special.

SPEAKER_00: 30:23

Who would you recommend Grindr for?

SPEAKER_02: 30:28

I mean it essentially any man or trans woman or trans person who's looking to connect with other men, and they can use men or connect, excuse me, however you want to use that word. If that means I want to explore sexually with men, because I never have, that's a way to connect. If it's I'm looking for a gamer community of other dudes who love playing Halo or whatever the newest thing is on Xbox, you can find that too. But it's like people who are searching for sex, for love, relationships, or just for gay community.

SPEAKER_00: 31:03

How can someone optimize their profile to achieve their whatever their intention is best? Because it sounds like there are so many different choose your own adventure. Like maybe you want a hookup, maybe you want to have your first experience with a man. Maybe you want to, you're like, I want to find somebody to be my partner. What are ways in which someone can make sure their intention is clear and find the best results?

SPEAKER_02: 31:35

I I think that's the beauty of a bio. And I think like be extremely blunt and clear about what it is that you are seeking. If you're looking for specifically a certain type of sex, a kinky type of sex, you have a really niche fetish, make that clear. Because A, that way people who are not into that won't message you, and the people that are into that will message you. If you're looking for to go out on a coffee date before hooking up, say that. I mean, because it is, I don't want to say a free for all, but because there's so many people on the app for so many different reasons, you do have to somehow filter it. And the way To do that is by being very clear and very blunt, and one thing I love about Grindr is how insanely direct people are with their sexual requests, or what they're looking for in a world where we have so much sexual shame about openly speaking about sex. Boy, the men on the amp they will say, first message, I want you to do one of the more wilder sexual things, and that's expected, that's normal. So you're allowed to be pretty direct in a way that you probably wouldn't necessarily be like at a at a club, you know, if you were just meeting someone.

SPEAKER_00: 32:47

It's interesting to me because I think about how often that is true on dating apps where I'm dating trying to date men. I'm not on those apps anymore, folks. But when I was, how I would so quickly men would share what they wanted to do. And women don't tend to react well to that from men. So it's interesting to me that it must feel good to have a place where you can be direct and have it received in such a way that it's not seen necessarily as a negative, but as like, I know what you're you're giving me your intention up front, your want, your need, and then to have a response where it's understood and appreciated.

SPEAKER_02: 33:39

Yeah, grinders grinder. If it was a different app, I wouldn't like recommend this. On Instagram, if you slide into someone's DM saying, I want to piss on you, we'd be like, What the fuck are you doing, dude? That's like wildly in a but on app, I mean, maybe that wouldn't be again my first message. Hey, hey, how are you doing? You in a piss play. Yeah, I'd love to piss on you. So maybe it's your fifth message, Dan. It's not the first thing you say. You still have to have some finesse. I'm not saying you can just go balls the walls here, but that is the point of this app. When the app was specifically designed for sex, originally, like you are allowed to be blunt sexually, versus yeah, uh Instagram. That's not why it wasn't an app made for sex, so it's an inappropriate app to be that blunt.

SPEAKER_00: 34:23

I I I love that piece though, that this was an app that was born to facilitate sex and all kinds of sex, right? Yeah, sex that's often shamed. Look, sex is shamed for everyone, especially queer folks and and women, and that it's evolved into a place also where you can find real companionship and love. And isn't that how the evolution should be? Because isn't sex ultimately uh a wonderful way to create love, right? Yeah, it doesn't always have to be, but it can go hand in hand with that. So it seems logical to me that as an app like that would develop, that people would start finding love because for me at least, sexual compatibility is high on my relationship list. Like when I was younger and I I was taught about sex, it was like that shouldn't be the point, you know, that should be lower on your list of things to look for in a long-term relationship. First, you look for X, Y, and Z. And for me, I have flipped that script because I feel like through sex is how I discover how kind a partner is, how well they listen, how much they're open, you know, all of the other things that are important. And if I can't like if we can't hit it off in bed, and if we're not fucking the same or able to fuck the same, or we don't have that chemistry, for me, that's like we aren't gonna like move forward. That to me gives me a lot of information about everything else.

SPEAKER_02: 35:58

Yeah, I think so too. I I think like sex being a proxy for other things in a relationship. You know, are you a giving sex? Are you greedy? Like, do you go down on women? If you don't, like fuck you, dude. You're you're not a generous person. If you're not a generous lover, I can't imagine you being a generous person in real life. You know, like do you care about your partner? Do you communicate? I do haven't thought about sex in that way, but I do think it's a proxy for many other things that would make you either attracted to or not attracted to an individual.

SPEAKER_00: 36:29

Absolutely. So let's talk safety. Sure. Getting on an app like Grinder. And yeah. I think again, sex between two men is gonna be different. There's gonna be a different risk level than there is between two women or between a man and a woman. Like there's just a whole different kind of uh thought process things to look out for, to plan for in order to stay safe. So can we talk about that? What do you recommend? What are your thoughts? What are things people should have an eye out for? How should they optimize their safety?

SPEAKER_02: 37:06

Yeah, I mean, it's there are always like safety precautions that you can take, whether it's just like, hey, and some people I know have done this, it's not super frequent, but some men do. They'll be like, hey, can I just do a quick video chat with you? 30 seconds, just to know, number one, that you look like your profile. You know what I mean? And or they might ask for like just your Instagram or something or Snapchat. They often like to do Snapchat because that's a way, hey, I can just show you a sexy photo of me, and you also know that I'm real, you know how I look in real time. So I think that is a way to definitely, if you're new to this, and the idea of meeting up with someone you don't know well is very scary to help maximize kind of your safety. I I think honestly, that's probably the biggest one I can think of. I think so many people are on the app because they like the anonymity and that rush of the fact that they don't know this person. You know what I mean? But I think there's nothing wrong with getting to know someone a little bit more and having a good text exchange, you know, beforehand. It doesn't have to be you send three messages and then you're face down ass up. You're welcome to keep messaging this person to get to know them, to have a little bit of safety or to feel more safe before meeting them. But honestly, I'd say the video chat is kind of the best, easiest. Hey, do you mind if we do a 30-second chat just so I can do this? And it might turn off some guys, but I think most would be like, yeah, sure, dude. Like 30 seconds is fine just so we get a sense of each other.

SPEAKER_00: 38:35

Do you ask for STD tests or results? Is that something that's part of the culture?

SPEAKER_02: 38:40

So yes and no. So Grinder does have a section of when you were last tested. So at least you know when you're last tested, also lets you know your status. That's a section two. So you know, are you on prep, pre-exposure, prophylaxis, truvata, which prevents you from getting HIV by like 99.99%? Or do you have HIV, but you're undetectable? Undetectable means untransmittable. Even if you have unprotected sex, if you're an HIV-positive person who has an undetectable viral load, you cannot transmit the virus. So it's that we'll also know like what shots you've received. So, like, are are you taking doxycycline as a form of PEP post-exposure prophylaxis, which is now very common in the gay community, helps prevent syphilis gonorrhea chlamydia. Have you gotten your meningitis shots? It will say, like, have you gotten your meningitis shots? Have you gotten your COVID shots? Meningitis protects against getting gonorrhea by 50%. So it's something that everyone I know this.

SPEAKER_00: 39:37

Like, what the hell? So is this only is this like this is not something I don't think queer women know. I'm like, what are all these protective No?

SPEAKER_02: 39:44

And it's straight people should know about this too. Like, like, it's and so, like, you know, if you've had the meningitis shots, you're on Doxy Pep, you're on prep, I see you were tested two months ago, like we're not going to be asking. If I see, you know, sometimes you just forget to update it. Hey, I'll say you haven't gotten tested in a year and it's not listing your precautions. I'll just be like, hey, when's the last time you were tested? But I think, especially in the prep era, where like I think our biggest concern was getting HIV, and now that's really no longer a fear if you have access to Truvada and Discovy and these other forms of prevention. Like the other ones, like there is a larger, a greater acceptance of chlamydia and gonorrhea and syphilis for men than there is for straight people. You know, I think for us, like, especially when you have a penis, it's really not a big deal. Vaginas are just much more finicky. And when you get gonorrhea or chlamydia or syphilis, it tends to be a bigger deal. It's like for us, we're usually asymptomatic. Worst comes to worst, you get a dribble, you go in, you get a shot of ceftriaxone, you don't have sex for a week, and then you're up and running again. So, like, it's just not as large of an issue for us. And I believe in sexual autonomy, I believe that you should be allowed to have the level of sexual risk that you want to take. But of course, you need to be communicative about that. You need to know what risks you are taking. So if this person's lying to you, you can't have informed consent, right? That you need to be able to do this. But it's condoms are not prevalent on Grinder. Actually, I'd argue that they're pretty rare, especially in metropolitans and in places where prep is so easily accessible. It's different, I think, in other cities where prep isn't. And because of that, you tend to wear condoms more. But yeah, so with certain people, I have discussed with certain people, I just kind of look at their metrics. That's usually what I do. Last time tested, the precautions that they take. Okay, I feel safe, you know, engaging in this sexual risk.

SPEAKER_00: 41:43

Okay. All right. That's interesting. So if you are going to bring it, would be like if you want condom usage, then you absolutely have to bring it up because it's going to be assumed otherwise.

SPEAKER_02: 41:56

It's I I see the assumption in New York is it's otherwise, and they ask for your form of protection. And so people, you can list condoms only. You could be my form of protection is I'm on prep. I'm on these things. So I think the condoms only make it very clear hey, I can search by other people who are condoms only too. Again, it's finding in the other people who are doing it too. Because again, I don't want to make it seem like no one uses a condom, but but I will say it is fewer and farther between.

SPEAKER_00: 43:36

Okay. All right. Also, something that stands out to me that's interesting. When I go out on dates with men, I'm also putting safety measures in place for my physical safety. So, for instance, as a woman dating a man, I'm gonna have my girlfriend who knows where I'm at, who's got the guy's number, like all of his information, you know, make sure I stay physically safe. When I go out with a woman, I don't ever do that. So with a man dating a man, and maybe not even dating, but getting together to hook up with a man, are there measures like that you you feel you need to put in place? Or because obviously the physical power is less imbalanced?

SPEAKER_02: 44:17

I mean, it depends. I'm 6'4 and 220 pounds. So I I don't maybe it's hubris, but I am not super concerned about my physical safety meeting up one-on-one. But if you are a five-foot twink who weighs 110 pounds sopping wet, and you're going and maybe meeting up with three muscle daddies who are 220 pounds, okay, there is a physical safety thing there. And I think there's always something to be said if you feel uncomfortable messaging that friend, or now we have all find my friends. But you know, I still get texts from it's usually more female friends, but some guy friends too, being like going on this date, seeing this person, if you don't hear from me, call the police. You know what I mean? Like they make that joke. And if you are really concerned, I think a pro tip is when you enter a house, one of the first things you can always say is, hold on one second, I'm texting my friends where I am. And and you say that so they know that. So if they were gonna try something, that would heavily deter them. But again, like, you know, I don't want to pretend that nothing bad ever has happened on the amp, but it's like I've hooked up with hundreds, if not thousands, of guys from Grind. And the vast majority of them, yeah, I've had some bad sex, I've had some awkward encounters, but they are safe encounters, you know what I mean? But of course, you know, there's always risk. The way there is risk meeting anyone from any app, any gender, you know what I mean, or sexuality. I think there always is a certain level.

SPEAKER_00: 45:43

All right, so one last question, and then we are going to give my listeners sort of their their go bag of tips for how to either get on grind or get started if tonight, if you want to tonight, or to start like digging into if they're having thoughts that they they've identified as maybe heterosexual, but their imagination is perked and like what do we do next? But what I need a picture of is this you get on the app, you make a connection, and you're just doing hookups. You just want to explore sex with men. Where are you meeting? Where are some of the places you're meeting? Where what are the next steps? How can that look?

SPEAKER_02: 46:32

I I think most of the time, and they always talk about there's a culture of this too of like they talk about hosting versus not hosting. Who can host and who cannot? So most of the hookups, not all of them, you know, happen in your bedroom or in their bedroom. Of course, if you live with four roommates, that might be a little bit harder and you list, hey, I can't host. I'm only looking for people who can host. But I'd say, you know, people definitely cruise and you can meet someone out, whatever it is at a bar, you check on your phone, you check at the gym, and then you're able to connect that way, using it as like a misconnection almost. And then, yeah, depending on where you are, you can maybe hook up in public. Again, I shouldn't be condoning this, but you know, whatever it is that you are doing, if you're going to the bathroom at the sauna, that's your business. Again, not condoning lewd or lascivious behavior, I would never. But I think, yeah, most of the time it does take place at at either of your guys' homes.

SPEAKER_00: 47:25

What is cruising? You've said it several times, and I have no clue. I'm curious, what is cruising?

SPEAKER_02: 47:32

So, kind of in gay hookup culture, oh, I should really have a good definition of this. But cruising is essentially like the art of looking for anonymous sex in public. So, and there's a kind of a dictated behavior that goes along with it. So, if you especially people, gay men often have cruised in parks, you know, and you meet up with another guy, you make eye contact, he looks back, he starts walking to this path that is or off the beaten path, away from someone, and then you end up sucking each other's dicks in the woods. You know what I mean? Like, but it is this eye contact, it is a look back, it is something you have to be kind of on the lookout for. Because if you don't realize what these subtle glances are, people are giving them to you all the time. And the same thing for cruising, a very popular commonplace to cruise is in like locker rooms. So in saunas and in steam rooms. And you would be surprised. I'm not talking about gay gyms, I'm talking about every single gym ever, if it has a sauna, has men blowing each other in it. And that is what, like, it doesn't matter, it doesn't have to be gay, but you know, that is what the song YMCA by the village people is about. I don't know if you know that's young man, there's always a place that you can go, and it's about cruising specifically at the YMCA and hooking up with it, or hooking up in there in the locker rooms. And I think that's so funny when they play this at bar mitzvahs and kids' parties, or when Trump is using it, it's like, I just don't know what the song is actually about. And if you did, I doubt you would be you'd be in the world.

SPEAKER_00: 49:06

Or maybe he does know. Maybe he does know.

SPEAKER_02: 49:08

Maybe he does know, but that's kind of what cruising culture is, and grinder can really help facilitate as a part of cruising culture. It's a little bit more digital and less analog now, but it could be kind of both.

SPEAKER_00: 49:20

All right. Well, there you go, guys. I feel like I've learned a lot.

SPEAKER_01: 49:25

Good.

SPEAKER_00: 49:26

Through this conversation. What I've learned mostly is how little I actually know about gay male culture. I'm very well versed in the film queer space. Sure. But I as you were like throwing out terms and talking about it, I was like, holy shit, how do I know none of this?

SPEAKER_02: 49:46

Kind of hot. Well, well, and now I'm gonna do a shameless plug for my book, Boy Slut, a memoir and manifesto. I actually have a a uh glossary in the beginning of the book because I think there were so and I like so many different terms that people are not familiar with. And I realize I don't have cruising in here, but I have a bunch of other ones, and people have really liked that section of the book because they felt like uh I learned just so much from these three pages. But yeah, because the there is a different terminology, there is a different culture, definitely between you know, queer male, queer men's versus queer women and just generally straight.

SPEAKER_00: 50:25

You know what's really funny? I think it's somewhat of a dirty secret in the queer film culture, is oftentimes when even l lesbian women watch porn, the secret secret sort of like pleasure is watching gay, gay guy porn.

SPEAKER_02: 50:43

Like it's it is common. So like I I think like I don't remember the studies, but the studies show like a large percentage of straight and bi women like watch gay male porn, and it might actually be more than men that watch it, just because let's say whatever, 10% of the population of the male population is watching gay porn, it might be like 15 or 20 for what just I think it was just more women are doing it, but it was something where it's like a lot of women watch gay male porn.

SPEAKER_00: 51:13

I don't know what it is, but I'm gonna be honest with you. Sometimes if I'm by myself having sex with myself and I've decided to use porn to help get me there, and I just can't find the little video that's gonna like get me over the edge and just pop on two or three guys having a good time, and I'm like, that's a party. I love us why that's not my thing, but it's apparently the fantasy is hot, yeah. It is. I think it's and I think it's just like seeing something that a I don't really have access to that much, right? And I think it's just like seeing people enjoying each other, and especially something that I don't, you know, because I don't have a penis of God. If I could have one for a week, I don't get to see. It's like it can be really exciting and beautiful and interesting. So for my listeners, let's let's give them what to do next. What are your suggestions for exploring if they want to dip their toe in the water and the grinder waters if you well?

SPEAKER_02: 52:18

Yeah, I I think again, it comes back to listing what you're looking for and where you are in your journey, in your profile, in your bio. So you could be like, hey, I'm new to men, just want to get sucked, or just want to suck someone else. So that way you're very clear you're not looking for anal penetration to start, let's say. You just want to get sucked, and this is a new thing for you. But I think being honest about where you are in your journey, being clear about what it is that you would like to do, you don't have to get on there and immediately get gangmaned by 500 dudes. You can take your little baby steps and finding other people who want to take those steps with you.

SPEAKER_00: 52:56

For men who identify as straight, but are curious or noticing that they're having thoughts or excited at the idea of what they read about getting on grinder and about like these secretive opportunities. What do you have to say to them?

SPEAKER_02: 53:15

It's I I think a label should always be descriptive and not prescriptive. And that I mean, if you're like, oh, I identify straight and therefore, despite having a curiosity, cannot hook up with men. It's like, no, no, no. Like, like, if you have this desire, you should explore the desire. Let the label then describe you afterwards. So, and for many reasons, I'm like, maybe just don't have a label right now while you explore because you might not know. Things are growing, evolving, and changing. But yeah, the label should feel not less limiting, it should feel more empowering. So if you're feeling limited by a label, like the then remove the label. And instead, I'd really just try to focus on your fantasies, your desires, excuse me, and your behaviors for now, and then let the label come afterwards.

SPEAKER_00: 54:07

I always tell, and I'm curious about your take on this, because I do have men that reach out to me and say things like, I'm straight, but I notice occasionally, like if I have a threesome with my wife, I kind of get excited or want to touch a dick, or or I have this experience and I'm like, does that make me gay? And my response is always, you get to decide what your identity is. Yeah. If you are a straight man who on occasion likes to suck a dick or have his dick sucked by another man, I feel like you can still say, like you get to choose if you identify as straight, right?

SPEAKER_02: 54:45

And I think the label, there's kind of two or at least two components to why we pick a label. So one is, you know, I want to like the sense of self that comes from having a label, a sense of identity that comes from I am gay, I am bi. And maybe you want to get more involved in the gay community, identifying as gay. But then I think there's also what am I trying to convey to myself about myself to the world? So if you are a dude who once in a while gets his dick sucked in a sauna, let's say, but is otherwise straight, by identifying as bi like you're not trying to date other men, and not that you have to be romantically involved with someone to be bi, you know, there, but like if you're not trying to really hook up with other dudes or watch RuPaul's drag race or be part of the gay community, it it is almost somewhat misleading to identify as bi because people are gonna assume, okay, this is what you want to do. So if it is something that you really rarely do, like it it's kind of you might not necessarily like want to identify as such because it kind of is not actually conveying what your sexual behaviors are.

SPEAKER_00: 55:58

Now, tell my listeners where they can find everything about you. And I do want you to hold up that book again and share it because I think this is a great opportunity to read about someone else's experience. I'm just saying He's a very masculine-looking man. Now, I'm not saying you feel that way on the inside, but six foot four, you can look all sorts of different ways. You can present all sorts of different ways, and it's okay to go on an exploration and hear somebody who has explored his sexuality, found his way, and is talking about it. And I think it helps to read someone else's journey, right?

SPEAKER_02: 56:36

It's and it's also the book over like, yes, it's very bisexual, it's very king positive, it's poly, all of that stuff. But like, what makes it for a good memoir is when you make your personal experience relatable to everyone. I remember my mom read Michelle Obama's Becoming, and she was like, oh my God, I like resonated so much with her. And I was like, You were the first lady of the United States. You know, it's like experiencing life as a black woman and going to these Ivy school. You know, it's like she they had nothing in common, but Michelle Obama wrote such an amazing book that it resonated with my mom. And I feel like this, like, it would be a misnomer to say this is just a buy book. This is just a book for men. This book really is for anyone who struggles with sexual shame and how to go about removing that sexual shame and how I was able to do so and how you can as well. So yeah, you definitely will get a different experience. You will get an earful of stuff that you might I might know nothing about, but I think at the end of the day, you'll be like, okay, this actually does relate and resonate to me as well. So I hope I hope I hope you have that experience at least.

SPEAKER_00: 57:39

So where because I think you and I also agree, a shame-free life, a life that's without sexual shame, is a much more fulfilled, healthy feeling life, right?

SPEAKER_02: 57:53

It it doesn't just, and I think we're seeing this now, we know, like sex does not just stop once you leave the bedroom. Like when you are not sexually fulfilled, when you have sexual shame, that permeates out into every single aspect of your life, into every relationship you have, into your work productivity, into all aspects of your mental health. So this stuff like isn't just, oh, I want to have more pleasurable sex. And that that could also be the goal as well, but like your whole life is going to change when you stop having these feelings of shame that are so insidious and pervasive and so limiting and depressing and anxiety provoking. Like, oh, I I look back and I feel like I'm a completely different man from where I was, and you'll see my journey to how I got to where I am in this. So that's a cool part of it, too.

SPEAKER_00: 58:42

Yeah, I really relate to that as well. So can you tell my listeners and viewers where they can find you, your book, and anything else they want to know about you?

SPEAKER_02: 58:51

Yeah, so my Instagram is Zachary Zayn underscore underscores at the end. I have like all my links there. I have the sub stack also called boy slut. Boy slut is one word. I should make a note of that because I learned that Amazon would have like dinged me in searches because slut's a bad word. So by having it as one word, I like I come up in search engines. That was like a big ordeal. You can buy my book anywhere books are sold. And then I have the sub stack also called boy slut, which is either great branding or very confusing. Just Google Boy Slut, and I feel like everything will come up. But yeah, between the sub stack and the book, check out Grinder, check out my Instagram. I think we're pretty, pretty set here.

SPEAKER_00: 59:28

Yeah. Yeah. Thank you so much for joining me today and for enlightening me and hopefully many, many of my listeners on the culture of Grinder, what it's really about, and also giving us a little more information on the queer male experience, whether you are gay, bi, or queer, whatever you experience your sexuality as. I really appreciate your openness with all of it.

SPEAKER_02: 59:53

No, thank you for having me. This was a really fun conversation and kind of got to get into the nitty gritty of it, which I really appreciate. Thank you.

SPEAKER_00: 1:00:01

Really felt how naive I am. So, to my listeners, until next time, I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers. Cheers ring loop.