Dismissive-Avoidant in Bed: Why They Pull Away (and What Actually Works)

If they finish… then shut down, this episode is for you. Today we break down dismissive-avoidant attachment in the bedroom—why someone can crave the physical but avoid the intimate—and what actually works to make connection (and foreplay/aftercare) easier.

I’m joined by Dr. Sam Zand, holistic psychiatrist, Chief Medical Officer at Better U, and founder of Anywhere Clinic. We cover:

• How dismissive-avoidant shows up in flirting, foreplay, sex, and aftercare
• Why intensity ≠ intimacy (and the “walls up after sex” moment)
• Common patterns: control kinks, porn/solo focus, skipping aftercare, substance-aided intimacy
• Nervous system basics: safety, arousal, orgasm, and freeze responses
• Tangible tools both partners can use tonight: eye contact, breath syncing, clear aftercare scripts, and “safe-to-connect” micro-habits

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introduction to Dismissive Avoidant Attachment
• 6:40 Understanding Avoidant Attachment in Relationships
• 11:26 How Avoidants Approach Sex and Intimacy
• 19:36 Kinks, Control and Sexual Preferences
• 32:48 Sexual Dysfunctions and Nervous System Responses
• 36:13 Healing Strategies and Building Connection
• 44:51 Practical Advice for Avoidants and Partners
• 50:53 Final Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Speaker 2: 1:03

Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here. Nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chats, our most trusted friends and, of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. If you've been here from the beginning, thank you, and if you're new, welcome to my podcast. Where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Now let's talk about sex Cheers. Today's Talk Sex with Annette.

Speaker 2: 1:40

Topic is dismissive, avoidant attachment and how it shows up in the bedroom. What happens when someone who craves independence, someone who prides themselves on being self-sufficient and emotionally detached, gets into the bedroom? What happens when someone who craves independence, someone who prides themselves on being self-sufficient and emotionally detached, gets into the bedroom? I'm talking about dismissive, avoidant attachment style. We all know that the attachment theory shapes how we connect in relationships, but what about how we connect in bed during sex? Why might someone avoid intimacy right after sex, struggle with foreplay or seem checked out even when they're physically present? And, most importantly, can that change?

Speaker 2: 2:20

To help me break this down, I'm joined by Dr Sam Zand, a psychiatrist educator and founder of Anywhere Clinic, a national telepsychiatry platform. Dr Zand is also the chief medical officer of Better you, where he helps expand access to psychedelic-assisted therapies. He integrates holistic psychiatry with cutting-edge neuroplastic therapies to heal trauma at its root. Basically, if anyone can help us understand how dismissive avoidance shows up in the bedroom and how to work with it, it's him.

Speaker 2: 2:55

But before we dive in, I want to remind you that I'm over on OnlyFans and there I am sharing my intimacy how-tos, my audio guided self-pleasure meditations and a lot of other information to help you start having better intimacy tonight. You can also find me over on Substack doing a whole lot of the same, and you can find me in both places with my handle at TalkSexWithAnette. Of course, you can scroll down to the notes under this episode and you can click on all the links that are going to bring you to find me wherever you want to find me. I look forward to seeing you there. And now, dr Sam, will you take a moment to tell my listeners a little bit more about you?

Speaker 1: 3:35

Yeah, absolutely. I'm a holistic psychiatrist. I think it's important to have that disclaimer. When you hear just psychiatry, a lot of people just think, oh, medications and overprescription and just diagnosing everybody is pathologized. But in fact I think what we need to do is look at the soul, really zoom out and understand that we're treating the psyche, we're treating the mind, we're trying to nourish and improve, restore the soul. That's the work that I'm up to, whether it's biologically, psychologically or spiritually, really just trying to help impact people finding themselves and being able to be authentic in who they are.

Speaker 2: 4:13

So, listeners, I want you to stay to the end, of course, because, first of all, I know that a lot of us are either frustrated with avoidance, dismissive avoidance in particular, with avoidance, dismissive avoidance in particular I'm not saying myself, but I might be talking about myself or we ourselves recognize that we are dismissive, avoidant and it's interrupting our ability to have the kind of connections and sex that we want to. And by the end of this podcast, not only are you going to have a better understanding of what's going on there and exactly how it's affecting your sex life. We're, of course, going to give you those takeaways so that you can start making a difference in your own life tonight or this afternoon, or wherever and whenever you decide to get into the bedroom again with yourself or someone else, so you will have tangible, immediate things that you can do to deal with this situation at hand. So I am ready. I'm excited about this conversation because I have been in bed with more than one dismissive avoidant in my life and I would like to make sure the next time it happens should it happen it ends better.

Speaker 2: 5:26

So let's talk about the dismissive avoidant and sex Cheers. All right, avoidance. I love you guys, I do. I chase you sometimes, or I used to, but we got to work on some shit, so let's do it. For listeners who might be new to the attachment theory, can you explain what dismissive avoidant attachment is and what it looks like in day-to-day life?

Speaker 1: 5:56

Yeah, Attachment style can be very psychoanalytical. We can get into things from childhood to parenting, to intimate relationship history. But if we're really talking about what is the avoidant, dismissive feeling like? How does it show up? Is it me? Is it my previous partner, my current partner?

Speaker 1: 6:16

This is someone who doesn't feel like closeness is what they want. Closeness feels like a threat. And maybe sexual connection, physical intimacy, is desired, it's practiced, but that closeness it feels threatening, not as a gift. That vulnerability becomes difficult. We might have the person who finishes orgasm and all of a sudden walls go up again. Right, it's like that. Maybe that time where I allowed myself to connect, that's a don't want to cuddle anymore, Don't want any more of that action after. And so it's this struggle between we. All want sex, but we have a hard time with the vulnerability between it. It's not a lack of desire of love, it's self-protection, and so this avoidance habit becomes. Sometimes it's even with self. We always say the relationship with others begins with our relationship with self. Many times, as we understand attachment styles, they're rooted in shame, they're rooted in guilt, they're rooted in fear, and so this conversation is an understanding of how it shows up, why it shows up and what we can do if we really want to change that.

Speaker 2: 7:33

How does someone with dismissive, avoidant attachment view sex itself? So I define sex as being so much more than just the actual in the bedroom having sex. But sex and intimacy how do they define it for themselves?

Speaker 1: 7:49

having sex. But sex and intimacy how do they define it for themselves? Yeah, it can show up in a number of ways. Often it's transactional, right. There's a control mechanism of. Sex may be approached as the physical act devoid of the emotional connection. It can often show up with a kind of preference for wanting to be independent. They might be. Sex is not what others will think is connecting us, but it gives me my independence, it gives me what I want. It's somewhat one way. There's an emotional detachment. You know it's. It's really. I think that's the core. It's that discomfort was vulnerability. So the view of sex, where some might see it as a spiritual connection, some might see it as a shared experience of emotion, some might just see it as pleasure. Key here is that we don't prefer the closeness, we don't prefer the emotional bond. We actually have a hard time with that. So sex can be still very arousing, it can still be very exciting, but it's often met with a negative emotion afterwards. I think that's a hallmark.

Speaker 2: 9:04

Okay, In my mind I'm like are they all bad in bed? Does that make them better? You know, I don't know why I went there, but I went there because good sex, where you're getting into like the juicy stuff and you're able to like play a little bit, take some level of connection of sex. Or, when you say transactional, can it be very mechanical to avoid that connection required to experiment and flow with another human being?

Speaker 1: 9:37

Yeah, I think experiments and flow is very, somewhat different than play, because experiment and flow suggests that we are present, we're meeting together where we are and we're going to go through this and explore it together in a fun, exciting way. But play can be manufactured, play can be manipulative, play can be strategic, and so maybe we found a way that is playful, but it's still not connecting us soul to soul emotionally. Right, it's still a method of enhancing arousal, pleasure, control, something that we want, but that want is not a connection.

Speaker 2: 10:17

Might a dismissive avoidant have specific fetishes, kinks or interests sexually?

Speaker 1: 10:27

Yeah, absolutely. I think that when we go over fetishes and kinks in psychology, we have to understand that the majority of them come from some mix of aggression, some mix of past experience, whether it was arousal to aggression, right. Somewhere there got mixed into this idea of I'm doing this thing that's taboo For some reason. I found it to not be okay, and so in that we might see the avoidant, dismissive, wanting to exert control power force, maybe in a BDSM type of way. Because it preserves that wall, it preserves that protection. We may desire to be more of a voyeur, because it keeps us safe, it keeps us distanced from the difficult emotion that maybe makes this complicated to the ego, whereas otherwise it would just be bliss. Right, if we like these fetishes and kinks and they're harmonic with the ego, then there wouldn't be any kind of discord, we would just be in a state of bliss. So it's not to suggest that any of these fetishes can't be without bliss. It's whether it's ego-dystonic or ego-harmonic. So I think that's an important part of this as well.

Speaker 2: 11:53

So I'm going to ask you to drill down. What are some other kinks, fetishes or types of sex that somebody types of sex and intimacy that somebody, with dismissive avoidance, might want or look for or seek out or initiate in the bedroom?

Speaker 1: 12:16

So we talked about some control themes, right, because we want to preserve that sense of control and distance ourselves a little bit. I think to the other extreme, there would be also what we kind of tend to refer to as mutual masturbation. It's like we're not really there to pleasure each other, we're there to pleasure ourselves through the experience of each other, and then the kink is just in the mind and we start to have more cognitive sex than somatic sex, because we're actually not sharing an experience, we're living our own and we found, maybe, a strategy that works that doesn't expose what's going on in my mind but we're able to ar it from developing more intimately, more emotionally. So we don't actually know each other, it's a one night stand or it's a, you know, manipulative role play that we're encountering together. So I think it's really intensity over intimacy.

Speaker 1: 13:40

It's the let's focus on the physical act and not the emotional, and that can show up in any kink, and so that's not to be judgmental, right. It's just emotional and that can show up in any kink, and so that's not to be judgmental, right. It's just teach their own filter of how they enjoy it. So maybe there's a predominance in control kinks, maybe there's a predominance in kinks that distance us like voyeurism, or, I think, though, the ones that we don't see a lot of avoidant dismissive is where we actually expose ourselves to a little bit of the vulnerable recipient side of things. So if it was BDSM, usually the avoidant dismissive would be the one inflicting the pain, having the control, whereas the avoidant dismissive likely wouldn't want to have the control taken away because that suggests safety, and that's usually not the MO, or literally transactional sex or looking for consecutive one-night stands with different people as opposed to building an ongoing relationship.

Speaker 1: 14:58

Yeah, absolutely yes. I think that if we are trying to continue to find ways to find pleasure but we can't find connection, then masturbation, pornography this has become so accessible these days that it's a survival mechanism. It's a defense mechanism that works. We actually relax our nervous system, we self-soothe, we don't have to deal with the vulnerability, conflict, the challenge One night stands. Similarly, it's even infidelity, where there's perhaps an assumption that this isn't going to go any further. We both understand that we're doing something bad, something wrong. Quote unquote. And so there isn't a bridge towards emotion, right? It's circumstances like that that we find ourselves in People who are just not available, you know, because we don't want to be available either, even if in our core and in the wants and the need, and then the reaction is very different. Someone might want connection, but they are not comfortable with it, so they subconsciously build patterns and relationships to keep that all up.

Speaker 2: 16:14

So it's not always like in our heart and mind, aligned with our nervous system and our reactions. So it sounds like there's also some self-sabotaging behavior there.

Speaker 1: 16:23

Yeah, absolutely. And any defense mechanism that's maladaptive, right, that ends up turning into something that isn't serving us, it's. It's a coping skill that, yeah, it's. It's. We're doing it to preserve, maybe, the thing that made us feel wounded before, that is sensitive, that is vulnerable, that actually ready to bring to um the situation, even though it can be so enlightening and cathartic to work through that. Instead, we're not ready for that. You know, this is the struggle. Freud says half of life is dealing with our sexual desire and half of life is dealing with our aggressive desire. These are the things that motivate the human psyche. If we boil it down and to find control over it is what we're always trying. We want control and sometimes just to surrender to it and be with it and understand it as okay. That's when we overcome some of those walls.

Speaker 2: 17:56

How might having a dismissive, avoidant attachment style affect one's approach to foreplay?

Speaker 1: 18:07

That's an interesting question. It's an interesting question. So, if we think of foreplay as the gradual build of sensual desire, as this kind of song and dance of delayed gratification. Delayed gratification often suggests a sense of trust, a sense of we're going to actually get there in the end, right Versus I need that instant gratification, I want it now. Let's skip the foreplay. And so I think that to really embrace delayed gratification, most of the time you need to feel safe, you need to feel trust, and so perhaps probably not the most common or the easiest thing to get into foreplay Now, I don't think that's 100%. Sometimes foreplay can be part of the mechanism that separates us. It doesn't have to be one size fits all. If we think about foreplay in the sense of building slow comfort and enhancing arousal together towards delayed gratification, that might be a challenge.

Speaker 2: 19:17

So it might be something they avoid engaging in.

Speaker 1: 19:20

Yeah, and again, unless it's used as a defense mechanism. This foreplay is for me to overcome the fact that I don't want to get vulnerable. So now I have a tool that I can use to in pattern, you know be able to arouse. You get me aroused and now we move through again, becoming more focused on the physical and the emotional so, hey guys, if they're skipping foreplay, make them take the attachment quiz, oh, but maybe.

Speaker 2: 19:51

so talking about foreplay and how that could be something that they would avoid, because foreplay is like a dance to bring you closer to then fully engaging in sex, I want to say, and I want to step sort of out of the bed or before the bedroom right when you're like, which is a form of I I would argue for a play but the flirting, the seduction, the seduction phase of wooing a lover and trying to get them into bed, because, as we talk about dismissive, avoidant attachment, I'm like are these the fuckboys of the world? Boy, b-o-y and B boy, boy and boi I'm talking about every gender here is that, is that what we're talking about here? I'm curious about if you know that's so scary for them, I mean, but they are also probably wanting to get laid like where? How do they act in the seduction part of this dance to get someone into bed? What are some signs we can look for?

Speaker 1: 20:54

Yeah, I think guarded flirtation when the flirtation is more teasing, it's more creating a little bit of that separation that can be seductive and attractive, rather than flirtation that is actually more connecting. You're wanting to get to know somebody in a way and complimenting them in ways because you're actually getting to know who they are that guarded flirtation can feel almost like too much exposure. So we want to be maybe a little bit more teasing or more, you know, negative, like the childhood's playground or interesting.

Speaker 1: 21:37

And I think there's a preference for indirect initiation. This is most commonly in society with substances right. When we're sober we're actually meeting each other in a state of intimacy, usually because we don't have any other way of numbing out from being there together. Often most of us, I think in society, have realized that sober sex is completely different and this desire to just kind of use substances to numb out can be a big sign of that avoidance as well. And just kind of use substances to numb out can be a big sign of that avoidance as well.

Speaker 2: 22:14

If there's emotional so they get flirty when they get drunk, they get drunk, or whatever. Then suddenly they turn it on and they get flirty.

Speaker 1: 22:24

Right, whereas before they were guarded right. That's a clear sign where, if we have that disinhibition all of a sudden now we're feeling more safe and more trustworthy. That's normal for all humans. But you know, is it mechanized every time? Is the absolute?

Speaker 1: 22:44

This is the only way I can get to intimacy is through disinhibition numbing it out, changing my chemical state through disinhibition, numbing it out, changing my chemical state. So I think avoidance of sober sex is probably high on this list as well. But bringing it back to foreplay, bringing it back to flirtation, there's often a discomfort with being desired. So you can think about the person who's avoidant and maybe isn't putting themselves out there. But what about the person who's avoidant, dismissive't putting themselves out there? What about the person who is avoidant, dismissive, but is the attraction of everyone's desire? They are actually uncomfortable with that because it's hard to trust, it's hard to build that relationship, it's hard to want to create closeness and connection. Often it might be more comfortable with someone who doesn't desire us as much overtly those overt signs might be a little bit too intrusive Interesting For them.

Speaker 2: 23:42

If someone directly desires them and pursues them like someone who's anxious, that is going to cause them to maybe be like the wall goes up. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 1: 23:54

Dribble with emotional connection. I might even like that person, but if I'm avoidant, dismissive, I don't want this to continue and so, subconsciously, the pattern might be that I go back to the person who kind of puts me down because it feels like, oh, they don't really want me that much and that's safer for me. This not only is protection as a wall, but also the psychology of mimicking what we grew up with. Often, when the love of a parent is mixed with abuse mixed with verbal, emotional, even sexual abuse, it can create this pattern of comfort. It's not what we want or desire, but we're just used to it and it makes sense. And part of the reason is that we have not built comfort with the unconditional love and safety of building intimacy and vulnerability. We grew up with fear, but that fear was entangled with love and so we're used to that and that feels more safe.

Speaker 2: 24:52

That's fascinating. I was actually thinking back to. It was about two years ago and so we're used to that and I guess maybe at the time I hadn't really thought about the attachment style of this person. But I recognize they always went after and I only ever saw them pursue people who treated them poorly and sort of the meaner these people were to them, the more they could pursue them. And one of the last times we sat down together I finally said to them you know, it seems like you prefer to date people who are shitty to you, and this made them very angry at me and they never spoke to me again. But that's so. That's an interesting framing of it. I hadn't ever thought of the fact that somebody with that dismissive, avoidant attachment might be more likely to actually pursue somebody who treats them like directly, treats them poorly, right, whereas I feel like myself who has tended towards anxious. I used to pursue people who would not be mean to me but start to withhold affection but not necessarily be mean to me.

Speaker 1: 26:15

Not to dive in fully here, but that withholding that emotional unavailability if that's something that we experienced when we were young, then this is comfortable. This makes sense. There becomes almost a conditional, you know, affection towards that middle state. Right now we don't want to be abused, but we also don't want to be like kind of praised, coddled, complimented, loved, adored as much, sometimes as scary, and it's not something we're used to and it might be. It feel threatening because the love that we're used to is a little bit more withheld. Again, it's not right or wrong, good or bad. That self-awareness can lead us on any path to bliss and happiness. It's just deeper learning of self to get there.

Speaker 2: 27:06

Right back to what you were saying about how a dismissive avoidant in the flirtation stage might kind of like engage in careful teasing, but not like full, like it sounds like they don't necessarily love bomb, like they're not going to like give a lot of like you're gorgeous, you're amazing, I want to be with you. But they might just maybe titrate in a little bit of flirtation and for someone who's anxious that could be like catnip right, oh, I got a little compliment, I'm going to like I want more. So maybe more of the breadcrumbing kind of behavior occurs during the flirtation stage with someone who has dismissive avoidance. Is that correct?

Speaker 1: 28:56

Yeah, yeah, I think all the way to deflection. You know it's the breadcrumbs either being received or given. Sometimes, if we're receiving that, it might feel good. The anxious attachment style actually really loves flirtation. Right To receive it because it validates the insecurity. But dismissive, avoidant is more about safety. It's more about vulnerability rather than insecurity and these things can overlap and so safety might want to deflect the flirtatious advance. On the side of being flirtatious, it may be very indirect, it may be guarded. It may be difficult to fully engage emotionally and can be just more like that sexual tease.

Speaker 2: 29:52

Interesting. All right, well, that's very insightful. I find myself kind of going through my life experiences, going oh okay, now I get it right. What are some sexual dysfunctions, if you will, that could show up in the bedroom because of this particular attachment style?

Speaker 1: 30:14

Yeah, this is big, I think, for both men, women all sorts of interactions, I think parallel, but there are some unique differences as well. But the parallel ones is that we need we all need a sense of relaxation to achieve arousal right, and if we're not feeling safe, it's hard to get aroused. So this is where someone would have low sex drive or low libido, because it's hard to even feel safe enough for that desire to come up. Our nervous system has to feel relaxed. That's what we call a parasympathetic, that rest and repair feeling.

Speaker 1: 30:55

Now the flip side, orgasm comes from that fight or flight response in the nervous system, that sympathetic, and so that could be possible because we could still have that fight or flight. That's actually predominant. It's fear that charges the nervous system in that way. But often, when there's fear that overconsumes us for too long, we fall into a third mode of the nervous system, which is that freeze, and that freeze can also lead to not only low libido, low sex drive, but anorgasmia, where we fail to achieve orgasm.

Speaker 1: 31:34

Now, men more often I don't want to stereotype, but there are just majority associations based on hormones and such tend to be a little bit more cognitive and pleasure is a little bit more an act of dominance. Little bit more an act of dominance right, and whereas generally, traditionally women, sex is an act of safety and trust, and so the man might not deal with the anorgasmia as much as he would deal with the fetal dysfunction, whereas the woman may have the anorgasmia more often. Those are just generalities. I think understanding the nervous system and the way that we require safety is really the key here for how the dysfunction shows up.

Speaker 2: 32:23

All right. Well, so now we're to the good part. We've listed, first of all, we've defined what dismissive, avoidant detachment is. We've talked about specifically not only how it shows up in life but in the flirtatious stage, the beginnings, the foreplay stages of sex, during sex. Little bit about aftercare, that they may just skip the aftercare. The aftercare and coming together and really basking in that post-sex experience could be skipped altogether and they may be jumping up, pulling their clothes on and saying, hey, got to go do this or that. So annoying and the dysfunction that can show up there. Oh, so annoying and the dysfunction that can show up there. So this is the good part. Let's talk about the ways in which we can work to fix that, if you will, or move towards more secure, oriented sex where we get to enjoy that connected sex or even if it's not fully connected, we're getting the fun foreplay, we're getting the filling sex and, hopefully, some aftercare. What are some things that we can do?

Speaker 1: 33:39

Yeah, absolutely so. The first is to build self-awareness. If we're not aware we're just passive passengers in life, right, we got to get in the driver's seat and understand who we are, how we show up, why we show up that way. And this is a challenge for someone who can be either dismissive or avoidant, because not only acting that way towards others, they're acting that way towards those vulnerable parts of themselves. And that's really the first step is. Most people think I need to learn how to be vulnerable with others. The first step is I need to learn how to be vulnerable with myself. I need to understand the shadow, as we call it, those dark parts that I'm not proud of, I'm ashamed of. Maybe they give me shame, guilt, fear. And if I'm not okay with those parts, how can anyone else be okay with those parts? Whereas most often in relationships we show empathy. When someone offers us vulnerability, we offer them grace and understanding because we slow down and take the time so we understand that they're sharing something difficult. We have to do that with ourselves first, otherwise we're just projecting all of our fears onto everyone else, and so that's the psychological answer.

Speaker 1: 34:54

There's some tactical answers to eye contact. It's such an intimate act that it's very difficult if we're feeling dismissive or avoidant. All of a a sudden, if we give ourselves permission, let's say we found the person, we want to feel safe with this person, but our body is just saying no, we can't feel safe. Start with the eyes, start with the breath. When we talk about synchronized breathing and eye contact, these are two of the most powerful intimate cues that we have. You know, on top of touch, and they all would sound quite uncomfortable to somebody who is dismissive, avoidant. But if you found safety, if you've conquered that step, to say one I can be vulnerable and safe for myself. Two I trust this person. I trust this person.

Speaker 1: 35:45

Then let's enhance the eye contact. Let's just sit before intimacy actually not I'm going to smash our heads into the pillow let's actually be eye contact. Let's recognize breathing patterns rather than just looking at the curves and muscles and features. Let's look at our breathing pattern and see if we're aligned. In that these are somatic steps that can really help us feel aligned. So there's a number of ways, but I think it really starts with bridging safety for yourself towards someone else. Remember that the person that you're with is also dealing with insecurity and vulnerability and it doesn't always feel great for that person. Most of the time, we get the chance to heal each other, and it's mutual, I think that's. Another big realization is we become very protective and self-focused, but if we want to contribute to making someone else feel safe, it usually makes us feel safe too.

Speaker 2: 36:41

I love how you start out with. It starts with making your relationship with yourself first and finding safety and healing within yourself. And then you know, obviously while you're healing yourself, you're probably still being intimate with other people. You can deploy during intimacy to sort of bridge that time until you get to the point where you can start working on how you're connecting with someone else and feeling safe in that connection.

Speaker 1: 37:18

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I think the practice happens first with self. We have the blessing of sharing that with someone else, right, like that's just an opportunity. What ends up usually happening is we avoid the intimacy and we seek sexuality. We seek the sexual pleasure, we miss spiritual pleasure. And you know, this doesn't mean that everyone needs to be on an enlightened sexual path. You can still have fun and get out there and do whatever makes you feel good, but to do it from a place of safety allows a deeper sense of excitement and thrill. If we're stuck in fear, we usually can't even get there, let alone really enjoy it fully.

Speaker 2: 38:04

Right. Also, when you're having sex with somebody else, there is a somebody else involved. And if you are having sex from a place of your attachment style an unhealed attachment style that includes withholding from a person who needs something, it can cause you know, it can hurt the other person, their feelings, their sense of security. So it serves you to be aware of where your intimacy is coming from and how that affects the other person right, and to let them know I'm not holding your hand after sex, man, we're high-fiving and I'm heading home and if you don't like that, we probably shouldn't do it.

Speaker 1: 38:50

And again, nothing to make any of this wrong or bad right.

Speaker 2: 38:53

With consent, it's all fine right.

Speaker 1: 38:56

Like if we're, if this is mutually what we want to deal with our psyche, you know, if it's helpful, if it's fun, if we're enjoying it, great, mutually beneficial. But really, I think what you said stands out is that most of the time when we think about sexual conflict, we're not thinking about the other person, you know, and takes two to say no, right. So it's like why are we so stuck in ourselves? And it's, it's this shame. Really think that it boils down to Shame, guilt, grief, fear. These are patterns that, if not healed, interfere with a healthy sexual life, and so the deep dive into the mind and psyche, I think, really unleashes a healthier sexual life as well.

Speaker 2: 39:47

For sure, for sure. I was thinking of a time when I was having great sex with someone and as soon as they finished I was on top. They like almost did you know the airplane thing where you lift someone up and like toss me aside? They were so overwhelmed I was like, oh okay, like this is interesting, and I laughed about it, of course, because I saw what was going on and we were able to talk. I'm like, hey, I don't know if you want to throw me aside when you're done, like kind of fun, but like that's a specific need, that's your aftercare, you need me to like. But yeah, it's interesting. In this conversation, talking through it, I haven't actually sat with these attachment styles and thought about them, from flirtation to foreplay, to sex to aftercare, how they could look no-transcript, which alleviated whatever I was going to miss. But then communication took place and communication can sure fix a lot of fractures that happen from maybe having different attachment styles and intimacy.

Speaker 1: 41:28

Dismissive avoidance is self-protection. Learned young, More young. We don't have communication skills, and so if that carries into our adult life, that's what unlocks. It is just to be able to express what's going on and have that be received by someone who feels safe.

Speaker 2: 41:45

I love that, Can you? This is the takeaway section we have. We've come there, folks, We've made it to the takeaway section. I'd like to kind of do this in two parts. First, I would like you to speak to the dismissive avoidance out there, Someone listening right now who's like, Ooh, I think that's think that's me. Could you just give them one or two pieces of advice, things they can start doing right now in their intimate life to improve it not only for themselves but for their partners.

Speaker 1: 42:20

Yeah, yeah, that's wonderful, I would say. One recognize that what we might perceive as a lack of feeling or a lack of connection really is just learning. It wasn't safe to show those feelings. And so the first step is feeling safe with whatever the emotion is and getting out of the judgmental mind. Because if your partner came to you and said, hey, I've been a little insecure about this thing and I wanted to bring it up because you're the person that I care about and I want to feel safe and honest with you, you'd probably meet that person with such grace and empathy, with such warmth. And so to realize that, why is it perhaps sometimes safe to receive that, to have someone else show me that that can reciprocate?

Speaker 1: 43:10

The other thing really it's not everyone has a partner to explore this with. Right, and I think that's something to acknowledge is that often our intimacy is an exploration of self. It's with, perhaps, friends, it's with maybe acquaintances or these casual interactions that aren't long-standing trusted partnerships. And so, even with that, I think, if we recognize that we are not the fear that we feel, that's just a part of us that's usually a young, wounded part, we can utilize all of those experiences with self, with friend with casual hookup, to learn more and to grow and to heal that inner child wound that probably now is showing up subconsciously. So for people who say you don't have anyone to practice safety with, you, have yourself, practice safety with you, have yourself and that's the first step is to say with myself, can bring up these emotions and feel okay with it. And you never know, maybe that casual hookup, the first time you express something vulnerably emotional, maybe it invites them to do the same, transgresses beyond the casual and becomes something deeper and transgresses beyond the casual and becomes something deeper.

Speaker 2: 44:33

I love that because I do think casual hookups or hookups with friends also are a great place to practice, even if you know this person isn't. You know, we've agreed that this is just going to be something fun for a night. It's a good place to practice. Whatever it is, you need to practice right, and to be able to do that with friends is wonderful as well. So now let's talk to the person who is not dismissive, avoidant, but in bed with one, and can you give them a couple pieces of advice.

Speaker 1: 45:08

Yeah, yeah. If this is you, if you're the person getting thrown off the bed afterwards.

Speaker 2: 45:13

Really happened. I'm not even exaggerating Airplane.

Speaker 1: 45:18

Right.

Speaker 1: 45:19

If you crave that connection but it feels like your partner isn't giving it to you, I think step one is to recognize that's not a lack of love, that's a lack of safety and love, and that's not your fault, that's predating your relationship most likely, and so recognizing that the person still is showing love, even when it doesn't feel that way to us, because maybe our love language is physical touch and post-coital affection is just everything to us.

Speaker 1: 45:47

But the other person's just like nope, ready to go um, or that eye contact, or that affection, that foreplay that really we're seeking, they're just like they want to just be in, get done, you know, get have that, achieve that orgasm and move on again. That's not a lack of love. What that requires is to you led my example right, kind of meet them where they are, in a joyful, curious way, and to not enhance shame or guilt or fear, but to embrace the playful side of things. Right, we are already completely naked, private, intimate, like why take ourselves so seriously in this moment? And so if you can meet that person with joy, with laughter, with even the gentle reminder, like I totally understand that you don't like affection and that's cool, we'll find our way, but to not feel defeated by that. I think that the hallmark is to know that love is still there, even though we're feeling it the way we want.

Speaker 2: 47:02

Do things like take advantage. If they want to jump up after sex and they don't want to cuddle, take advantage of it. Say, go ahead and get up. While you're at it, can you run to the store and get me a coffee, bring it back to bed. Or get me some dessert. You can just drop it off by the bedside stand. You know what I mean. Find a way to capitalize on the differences. That's what I'd say.

Speaker 1: 47:25

If we take desire out of the mix and just accept what is? He just had beautiful sex and what. Afterwards you want a little bit more cuddling, but the other person isn't there yet. Maybe not forever, just not yet. What is? It's so beautiful and, yeah, go get me a coffee.

Speaker 2: 47:40

Yeah, there you go take advantage, enjoy, enjoy the bed to yourself, you know, stretch in. Uh. Thank you so much. This has been really enlightening and I feel like I've learned a lot from this conversation and some really good tools for both the avoidant, dismissive, dismissive avoidant and whoever else whether you're anxious or fearful avoidant, or you know the unicorn, the secure person, some ways to help your lover if they are a dismissive avoidant. I would love for you to take a moment now to tell my listeners where they can connect with you, find you and learn more from you.

Speaker 1: 48:20

Yeah, absolutely. I'm on all socials at Dr Sam Zand D-R-S-A-M-Z-A-N-D, and I'm pretty friendly if people want to ask for advice or something they're going through. I just can't give any direct medical advice, I can't make it pointed, but I can give some general education and feedback and so I enjoy connecting on Reddit and Instagram and such Otherwise. If anybody out there is saying I would love someone on this journey to keep talking and exploring about these things, maybe we don't have the intimate partner who's open to that communication. This is where a good therapist or a good holistic psychiatrist can hold your hand on that journey and help you remove the shame, the judgment, the blame and just find yourself and find the beauty in restoring safety.

Speaker 1: 49:08

It doesn't have to be just medications and prescriptions. We do a lot of holistic work therapeutically. We look at ways to rewire the nervous system and heal the inner child. So you can find us at anywherecliniccom. We actually take insurance in most states and pretty discount self-pay otherwise. But yeah, I think everyone deserves someone to have these difficult, sometimes conversations with, but hopefully they transition into playful and fun conversations.

Speaker 2: 49:38

I love that, so make sure to check him out, especially if you are experiencing any of the things we've talked about. I am going through how each attachment style shows up in the bedroom, so either look for previous episodes on an anxious attachment and the fearful, avoidant attachment.

Speaker 2: 50:04

But if you have any questions specifically on what we just talked about, you know what to do. If you are on my audio only podcast, you can go over to my YouTube channel at TalkSexWithAnette, find this video and you can drop your question in the comment section below, or you can shoot me an email at Annette at TalkSexWithAnettecom. Or you can scroll down to the notes section in this episode and you can click on my speak pipe and you can send me a voicemail and I will do my best to get back to you or to get your question answered. I want to thank you so much for joining me today, doctor. This was really helpful. It was a great conversation.

Speaker 1: 50:44

Yeah, Thank you for having me. I think it's fun to get into the awkward conversations and show people. It's just an easy flow once you kind of get past the initial hiccups and even today you know, notice my somatics right in the beginning. It's like talking about sex today. That's not my everyday podcast. I wouldn't have known that flow, that song and that dance right. That's intimacy and just being able to connect about real things. So hopefully we're able to model that for everybody today.

Speaker 2: 51:15

I think so, and to my listener until next time I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.