When Kink Gets Complicated: Relationship Struggles No One Talks About

Kinky couples are some of the most communicative, consent-savvy lovers out there—but that doesn’t mean their relationships are drama-free. Sometimes the same power dynamics that light you up in the bedroom can throw things off outside of it.

In this episode, I talk with Wendi L. Dumbroff, MA, LPC, a kink-affirming couples & sex therapist, about the struggles kinky couples don’t always see coming—like mismatched appetites, shame, or when D/s roles bleed into daily life.

What you’ll hear:

• The biggest red flags of a kink-shaming therapist
• Why mismatched kinks hit harder than mismatched libidos
• How neglecting aftercare can quietly damage connection
• Simple ways to keep your play hot and your relationship healthy

If you’ve ever felt like you had to shrink your desires to keep the peace, this one’s your permission slip: protect your intimacy and find support that actually gets you.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Introducing the Podcast
• 2:22 Today's Topic: When Kink Gets Complicated
• 4:02 Meet Wendy Dunbroff: Kink-Positive Therapist
• 7:52 Finding Kink-Friendly Therapy Help
• 11:26 Common Issues in Kinky Relationships
• 18:42 When Desires Don't Match
• 26:09 Finding the Right Therapist
• 35:34 Relationship Advice for Kinky Couples
• 40:54 Closing Thoughts and Contact Info

Transcript

Speaker 2: 1:03

Do the sex pleasure and desire Around here. Nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chats, our most trusted friends and, of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. If you've been here from the beginning, thank you, and if you're new, welcome to my podcast. Where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Now let's talk about sex Cheers.

Speaker 2: 1:38

Today's Talk Sex with Annette topic is when kink gets complicated. Relationship struggles no one talks about. Let's be honest.

Speaker 2: 1:47

Kinky couples are some of the most communicative, consent-savvy, emotionally in-tune lovers out there, but that doesn't mean that their relationships don't hit rough spots. In fact, sometimes the power dynamics that light you up in the bedroom can start to mess with the balance outside of it, and when that happens you can't just go to any old therapist and hope they get it. Too often, couples exploring BDSM or alternative dynamics get pathologized, misunderstood or, worse, told that what turns them on is the problem. Today's guest is here to shift that narrative. Wendy Dunbroff is a licensed professional counselor with advanced training in couples and sex therapy. Her practice is affirming, nonjudgmental and, yes, kink positive. She works with individuals, couples and families who want deeper connection and better communication without having to hide or shrink the parts of themselves that don't fit the vanilla box.

Speaker 2: 2:48

And today we are diving into the relationship issues kinky couples don't always see coming. We'll talk about what makes power play hot until it's not the surprising emotional toll of mismatched kinks, and how shame internal or projected can quietly erode your dynamic, whether you're a switch, a dom, a submissive or just kink curious. This episode is about learning how to protect the intimacy that makes your play possible and how to find support when things get complicated. But before we dive in, I want to remind you that I am over on OnlyFans and there I'm sharing my sex and intimacy how-tos demonstrations and audio-guided self-pleasure meditations, all designed to help you start having better intimacy. Tonight you can find me there or on Substack doing a whole lot of the same under the handle at TalkSexWithAnEye. You can also scroll down to the notes below, and you're going to find links to find me wherever you want to find me. I'll look forward to seeing you there. Now, wendy, I would like to give you an opportunity to tell my listeners a little bit more about you.

Speaker 1: 3:53

Sure, and first, thank you so much, Annette, for having me here on your show. It's an honor to be here and I loved what you said about shifting this narrative to kink positive and not pathologizing people. So, as you said, I am a couple and sex therapist. I have also training in mindfulness and meditation and I infuse mindfulness and that kind of awareness into all the work that I do with people, with couples, with individuals, and counseling is a second career for me. But here I am and I learned more about sex therapy because I loved working with couples and, of course, when you work with couples, you work with sex.

Speaker 2: 4:36

Well, welcome and I'm excited to have this conversation. I think it's going to be very helpful to a large portion of my listenership. I know you guys are all kinky. I know because I see which videos you're looking at. So whether you're kinky or you're kink curious and you want to bring that into your dynamic, this conversation is going to be useful for you because you're going to find out what to do when you hit those relationship road bumps which we all do. We all do in our relationships.

Speaker 2: 5:08

So please stay to the end, because we are going to go over common relationship issues that she sees in her practice and how to navigate them, how she suggests navigating them. So by the end of this podcast, you're going to have a little go bag for how to help your relationship be healthy and stay healthy, regardless of what pops up as you move through your personal life and your intimate kinky life. So I'm ready to talk about relationships and kink. How about you? I'm all ready, All right, let's talk about kink. Cheers, Cheers, All right. So I just want to start with. What challenges do kinky couples experience when issues pop up in their relationship and they want to find someone to help them a therapist or a counselor or a coach. What are some common issues they run into and what keeps them from finding somebody that will work for them?

Speaker 1: 6:12

Yeah, it's a great question because I think sometimes people in any alternative sex world of their choosing can often be pathologized by mainstream therapists who are just, you know, to no fault of their own. They're just not aware, they don't have the information. I was one of them once. I had a couple back when I was doing my couples training before I did my sex therapy training, that I would have worked with completely differently had I known more about kink. So kink couples run into the same problems that vanilla couples run into. It's usually relationship problems that they come to me for, but part of the reason they come to me is so they will come to someone who gets it, who knows who's not going to like shudder when they talk about the things they like to do and what they enjoy.

Speaker 2: 7:11

So this is an interesting perspective. You have this perspective of being a therapist pre-becoming kink-aware and post. Can you talk to me about the shift in your view, the shift in your approach that has taken place from becoming more educated on how to work with kink couples?

Speaker 1: 7:32

I think one of the most important things is just one not pathologizing in any way what somebody likes, understanding what they like, and also that they don't have to fit themselves into any box. I think that's one of the biggest things that I've, especially people with alternative sexualities who may not even know what they are and they come to me like so obsessed, like I'm not even sure what I am. I like this, but I like this, but I like this. Go play, go practice. You're a single person, you're out in the world. Go figure out what you like and don't worry about fitting yourself into a box. And the same with kink couples, because there's different flavors of kink, right? Some people like one thing, some people like another thing. So there's no box that you have to fit yourself into, as long, of course, as everything is consensual.

Speaker 2: 8:30

Right and you talk a little bit about some of the common ways that therapists who aren't kink-informed might pathologize a person coming in who's kinky. Just in case there's anyone listening right now who is kinky and they're in therapy and this is happening to them, so that they kind of read those signs.

Speaker 1: 8:54

I think our clients read us as therapists as much as we, you know, are reading them and they're going to see if you have like an ick or someone is almost shaming and saying so tell me about this thing that you like, and they try and pathologize it and make it a bad thing. Or let's say somebody's kink is sexually pleasurable for them and that it is also a repair of, perhaps, a childhood Not that it always has to be, because it doesn't. That's another myth. Some people are just naturally kinky and they've had kinky fantasies for as long as they can remember and it's not a repair of abuse. Sometimes it is a repair of abuse.

Speaker 1: 9:46

So one thing is someone might say oh well, you like to be a submissive and you like to be molested before you go to bed or something like that. But you know you're just repeating what happened to you as a child and that's not healthy. Well, yes, it is right, Because this time I have the chance to say no, you have to stop if I want you to stop and you're going to stop. And that's the person's sexual template, that's what arouses them. And, as long as it's to consenting adults, might have a different view of that. Someone who's into really hard kink right that involves blood play. Somebody might see that as oh no, no, you're self-mutilating or you're allowing someone to mutilate you. It's not okay and it's what they want, and it's consensual, and it's safe and, you know, done in the right way. That's my biggest concern. Safety is always first, whether it's a parent and a child dynamic or whether it's a couple dynamic.

Speaker 2: 11:02

So you bring up this myth that some non-informed therapists might believe, which is that all kink stems from you know whatever childhood trauma. Are there any other prevalent myths that a therapist who hasn't gone through becoming kink-informed might be buying into?

Speaker 1: 11:27

Well, I think just that people are self-harming, are allowing themselves to be, you know, re-abused. I'm sure there's others out there that I'm just not thinking of, but I think that we have to listen closely to what our clients say and understand this is what they like. Oh, but you have scars on you, why? Oh, my God, what are you doing? You know? No, I once had a I went to a dermatologist, just for you know, regular checkup, and I had been cooking and a piece of hot onion flipped out and burned me right here. And the doctor said to me what's that? And she's like, never mind, I don't want to know. And I thought to myself, wow. Now I said no, I was cooking. And a piece of onion popped out of the pan and it was almost like she didn't believe me. I don't want to know, you know.

Speaker 1: 12:32

And just doing something like that, that I don't want to know, can make someone feel so shamed, right? Like, wow, they really think, whatever I did, was there something wrong with it if they don't want to know, right? And so we have to be open and we have to know our limits as therapists, too, right? Whether you're a kinky therapist or not a kinky therapist yourself. You have to know your limits and we go through trainings called SAR, a sexual attitude reassessment, which you have to do to become a sex therapist, and that is so you know what your limits are. So some people that come to me, you know if there's something that gives me the ick too much to work with them, then I need to know that and tell them. I need to refer you out because I don't want to do that. So there's a lot of awareness that you have to have because I don't want to do that. So there's a lot of awareness that you have to have.

Speaker 2: 13:36

Right, so that's kind of a good thing to think about too. Is what are some signs for somebody who's in therapy right now that perhaps the therapist they're with has got the ick and isn't able to drive them in the direction they need to solve their relationship issues? Common things that therapists might say, for example, with that dermatologist just the? I don't want to know. That's clearly an issue that would make me feel shameful as well, but what things like that could someone look for in their connection with their therapist?

Speaker 1: 14:51

no-transcript. It's got to be someone that you can open up to if they find themselves holding back Like I don't want to, I don't want to. Maybe I shouldn't say that that's a sign that you're feeling like you shouldn't feel like you have to hold back with your therapist, and if you do, you can say listen, there's something I wanted to talk about, but I don't know for some reason. I'm wondering if you're going to judge this.

Speaker 2: 15:27

Are there certain trainings that you could ask a therapist if they've had an advance to be us to understand? Have you ever been to a SAR?

Speaker 1: 15:35

How many SARs have you been to? What kind of training have you done in sex therapy? Do you work with couples like me, like us, we're kinky. Do you work with kinky couples? Do you know what kink is? What kind of?

Speaker 2: 16:08

kinks do you know about?

Speaker 1: 16:10

What kind of kinks there's so many.

Speaker 2: 16:12

Yeah, yeah. So now I want to shift to, as someone who is a kink-informed and kink-friendly therapist, what are some common issues that couples come to you with?

Speaker 1: 16:27

So kinky couples that come to me, I think, as we've talked about, are seeking someone who's not going to judge, who understands, who they can speak freely with about what they enjoy and what they like, and they usually come with the same issues that vanilla couples come with. You know, we get in these arguments. Here's what happened Her mother is, you know, too involved. We're not communicating well outside of sex, right, because kinky couples communicate very well around sex, but things like that normal, regular, everyday things that couples deal with regular, everyday things that couples deal with Right.

Speaker 2: 17:18

So folks, kinky couples have everyday arguments too, about money, about communication, all of those things, yeah, all of those things, yep.

Speaker 2: 17:27

And what are some common issues that come up in a kinky relationship? Let's say where it's your standard problem, but what is the way in which oftentimes, a kink life can tie into those everyday problems? I do know for some people their kink life actually becomes sort of a full-time lifestyle. For instance, in a dom-sub relationship. Some people like to keep it in the bedroom, but some people also like to continue that dynamic outside of the bedroom.

Speaker 1: 18:05

That can be a problem when one wants to do that and the other doesn't. The other is happy to have their kinky play and or vanilla play. Sometimes the other kind of wants a larger, broader lifestyle and that, depending on how they can negotiate that, may or may not. It may or may not be a longer lasting relationship Right With couples that one is kinky but didn't reveal that before the marriage in this case married couple, I'm talking about a married couple and then it's sort of kind of like new information somewhere along the line. And then so it's kind of like new information somewhere along the line and the other person is not kinky and not really like. Even if they're willing to be a little kinky, they are more. One couple I worked with, the partner who came out as kinky was really a switch but wanted both, kind of wanted to experience both sides. The other would only do Dom and so they could never get that other side and even when the other partner did Dom they just weren't as into it as they wished they were.

Speaker 2: 19:57

Well, I guess I hadn't thought about that. What about when there is a vanilla couple and one starts to become interested in kink, so they come to you just as a couple and maybe discover down the road that, oh, one of the issues that's really popping up in our sexual relationship is that I'm curious about kink. I really feel like I need to explore that.

Speaker 1: 20:27

Yeah, that can absolutely happen. And again, it depends on the willingness of the other partner, the interest of the other partner, whether, if one partner is not into it, are they open to letting their partner explore it on their own and opening the relationship if it's not an open relationship, and then whenever somebody opens a relationship, there's also what are the boundaries of the open relationship.

Speaker 2: 20:56

So that's a whole other ball of wax to deal with in helping people open their relationships because I think what happens oftentimes too in relationships, when one person becomes curious about kink, is that their partner starts pathologizing them, or pathologizing them and thinking oh, you want to do this one thing. That must mean you're X, Y and Z.

Speaker 1: 21:38

You're a pervert, you're violent.

Speaker 2: 21:42

Yeah. And so having a sex therapist who is informed and can say look, no, your partner isn't suddenly becoming this awful human being, this is normal, and being able to inform a partner who's vanilla, I think that would be very important.

Speaker 1: 22:09

That is absolutely important. And sometimes if they say well, why didn't they know this? How could they not tell me? Well, they may not have experienced it yet. They may have just come across a video somewhere or heard something, someone talking about something, or saw a movie and it piqued their curiosity and they just didn't know. And there's nothing wrong with it, it is normal. There is a whole world of this and a whole community of folks who love this.

Speaker 2: 22:37

Yeah, Well, and I think that many people don't realize how fluid your sexual interests can be and even your sexuality. And if you don't know about something, then you don't know how your body and your mind and your preferences are going to react to it. And exposure even, like you said in a movie, in an article that pops up, because there's more and more out there explaining different kinks, what they are, you know who likes them, how you can approach them, and that knowledge in and of itself allows people to discover parts of themselves they may not have had access to before.

Speaker 1: 23:18

Yeah, I just saw a movie. Actually, one of my clients asked me to watch it because one of my kinky clients asked me to watch it because she had seen it. Baby Girl.

Speaker 2: 23:27

Baby Girl I just watched it.

Speaker 1: 23:29

Yeah, you did. I just watched it a few weeks ago and what I loved about it was how her kink partner that she was with Nicole Kidman normalized it for her because she was feeling like there was something wrong with her, and then how eventually her husband was able to join her in that and not look at her like she was crazy.

Speaker 2: 24:19

Yeah, that was the ending was very interesting to me because it was actually the kink partner. Folks, if you haven't seen Baby Girl, I recommend it. Maybe it's not a cinematic masterpiece, but I thought it was a really I think. I saw it last week. I'm still sort of processing it and what all took place in it because, spoiler alert, if you're going to watch it right now, I'm going to give you a second to like fast forward. So do that right now. All right, I liked how at the end, actually the kink partner helped the husband, helped the husband, and so this kind of goes back to you talking about helping partners if they have mismatched interest in kink. Talk about can you explore this outside of our relationship if one person is a hard? No, because sometimes even you can explore kink without there being real. I want to say sexual interaction, meaning fluid exchange or penetrative sex with a kink partner. There's a lot of kink you can explore without it breaking certain agreements you can make within your relationship about kissing or PNV sex or whatever that might be.

Speaker 1: 25:22

Yes.

Speaker 2: 25:22

I agree.

Speaker 1: 25:23

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 25:25

But it takes having someone that understands and is informed, and so if you have a therapist, that's just like something's wrong with you. So it sounds to me like some of the primary issues that you see from kink couples in your office are just everyday relationship problems.

Speaker 1: 25:49

Yeah, for the most part they really are. They really are just, you know, really any people in any alternative sexual lifestyle. I got a call recently from someone who was poly but just having desire discrepancy issues with their primary partner, and it happens. The most common reason any couple comes to therapy is because of desire discrepancy. One person wants more sex than the other, or one person is like kind of dropped out of the sex game and they don't want it and they, you know they haven't really wanted it at all and whether they're kinky or poly or you think, well, poly people are, are having desire, but there's, they're poly, they're what they want so much. No, look, there's still issues around desire. Yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:46

So what are your? The most common kink-related reasons that couples come to you, the problems that they face specifically having. We've named a couple, but I just kind of want to list them off so that these couples who are out there might go. Okay, these are common. I can go find someone who will help guide us.

Speaker 1: 27:11

So a lot of the normal issues. One somebody broke a boundary right they were going to do these were the boundaries of the relationship and they, they broke a boundary of the relationship, whether that was being with someone else or communicating with someone else, even online. That wasn't supposed to happen. Or if it was supposed to happen, you were supposed to tell me if you were going to be with another dom online, then you should have told me that. You didn't tell me that. So trust and you know trust issues, communication issues outside of the sexual realm, just this you know I work very much with people. I, in their relationship, I look at their cycle, what happens between them, how one person triggers another, what the other person does, how that triggers the other person and the cycle they get into. Every couple, whether kinky or vanilla, they come in and they've got some cycle happening. So I really work with that, with their son. Of course there is desire discrepancy, there is kink style discrepancy, as we talked about one person into kink, the other person not into kink.

Speaker 2: 28:34

Yeah Right. So for my listeners right now, if they are out there and they are recognizing that they have some issues and they want to find someone, what are some things they should look for? They're looking for a therapist. Can you give them kind of a bulleted list? As they go out into the world or go out into the online world and start looking to interview therapists or pick a therapist, what are some things they can look for to make sure that they're picking the right person?

Speaker 1: 30:05

So if they're looking for couples work, I think it's really important to find someone who's trained in couples therapy, and I think it's also important to find someone who's trained in sex therapy and, interestingly, they have never taught couple and sex therapy together. Why, I don't know, and I think it's starting to blend a little. The place where I did my couple and family therapy training at the Ackerman Institute in New York now does have a sex therapy training program, but I think it's separate so I don't think it gets incorporated. I think you have to do like both of them. So look for someone who is knowledgeable in sex therapy. I think most sex therapists are knowledgeable in kink, like all our conferences and everything. Everything is very affirming, and so I think a good couples therapist and someone who has sex therapy training is probably the most important thing.

Speaker 2: 31:07

And you give a couple questions that are absolute musts for a kinky couple to ask when they're interviewing a therapist to ask that therapist to make sure that that therapist is going to be a good fit for them.

Speaker 1: 31:21

Yeah, to let them know. My partner and I are kinky. Are you familiar with kink? Are you kink aware? Have you worked with other kinky couples? How do you feel about that? I think you just have to be very forthright and honest about that. And if they're like, well, what do you mean by kinky? Say well, we, you know, I don't think you know, so then you know. Then they might want to move on. And I've had people call me and say you know, we're going to a few people, we're calling a few people, we're interviewing around, we'll get back to you. It's okay to do that. It's okay to go to one couples therapist and you know, go to another couples therapist and see which one you like better.

Speaker 2: 32:14

Do you recommend them asking about their specific dynamic? Are you familiar like their specific dynamic? Are you familiar, like if it's DOM-SUB or if it's into a certain kind of play, primal or, you know, animalistic, whatever it might be? Is it important to ask your therapist in advance? Are you familiar with this specific dynamic?

Speaker 1: 32:43

with this specific dynamic. I think it could be a very useful question. Yeah, because there are people that specialize and there's some things like probably that I would say you know what, if that's your kink, you might be better served with this person who's an expert in that. Or let me find you someone because I have access to the community of therapists. Let me go on my listserv and find you someone who really specializes in and understands that more than I do. Yeah, I think that is a fair and useful question.

Speaker 2: 33:30

So for my listeners right now who are going to start looking for a therapist or who are experiencing problems.

Speaker 1: 33:36

What are maybe your three top piece of advices? Little takeaways right now. That is, listen closely to each other, listen to hear, not to respond Right, listen to hear, so, and even if you just reflect back what the other person is saying before you give your take on it or before you get defenses. So you are saying that when I do X, y and Z, you feel like really upset about that. Yes, I do right. Listening to hear and then understanding. Well, okay, it's not my, it was never my intention to make you feel that way and I hear that you felt that way.

Speaker 1: 34:23

Validating a person. Validating does not mean that you agree, like I always use the example of if our kid doesn't want to do their homework and we say to them yeah, I get it, it sucks doing homework, you know, it's like you'd rather be playing your game or talking to your friends or doing something else, and you still have to do your homework. Right, you're still going to tell them that, but you're going to see them where they are. So just validating just means I see you where you are and that's just a really good and powerful tool so that you all feel heard.

Speaker 2: 35:02

I love that. Two more little pieces of advice takeaways for my listeners.

Speaker 1: 35:07

To hear and validate each other. Pause. Pause before you react and notice. Well, every time I get upset, I start attacking, and that's never useful. What always happens is the other person shuts down. Well, if it didn't work time one or two, or 734, it's not going to work this time. It's not going to work this time. So let me just pause and try something different. Pause, open space before you go into that usual, habitual pattern.

Speaker 1: 35:53

As the Buddhist nun, pema Chodron says and you know, with my studies in mindfulness, I've learned this beautiful word, equanimity which is best defined by its opposite, which is reactivity. So can I be with this uncomfortable feeling? Can I honor that it's here and not be reactive to it? And that's this pausing, creating a space, taking a breath, taking some time away if you need it in order not to do the thing that you usually do. Yeah, that's that. Causing is a good one, and if you find yourself really in that space where you can't seem to get out of whatever keeps happening between, seek help. It is a strength to put up your hand and say I can't do this myself. I need to bring in some help and find someone who is well-trained in doing that, that you feel comfortable in relating to that. You feel comfortable relating to who is kink aware if you're kinky. Who is kink aware if you're kinky, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 37:07

I love that. I love that. So for my listeners, I think you have a really good overview of if you're kinky and you have normal everyday relationship issues still, find a therapist who's kink aware and positive Still, because you never know how that part of your life is feeding into the out of the bedroom part of your life. And if you do discover that, you want someone who gets it and doesn't pathologize you we never want that to happen, right. And also, wendy has done a wonderful job of illustrating some of the common kinky issues that can cause problems in a relationship too. And then what to look for when you're looking for that therapist. And what to look for if you currently have a couple's therapist you're working with who might be making you feel more shameful or pathologizing you because of your preference, you might need to find a new therapist right?

Speaker 1: 38:13

Yeah, because they just don't know how to do it right. They just haven't learned.

Speaker 2: 38:20

Thank you so much. Can you tell my listeners where to find you if they want to find out more about you or follow you on socials?

Speaker 1: 38:29

a Y, but I spell it with an. I wendydumbrofftherapycom. I think I have a Twitter page or X or whatever it is. Now we don't know? Yeah, we don't know. I have a Facebook page, but honestly I'm not personally, I just don't post a lot on that, but everything I've done is on my website, so it's all there.

Speaker 2: 39:03

Fantastic, so you can go to her website and find out more about her and connect with her if you are looking for someone who will understand you. Thank you so much. Listeners, If you have questions on this topic things that I haven't covered please feel free to either head over to the YouTube channel at TalkSexForTheette and drop your question in the comment section below, and we will do our best to get back to you and get that answered. You can always email me to Annette at TalkSexWithAnettecom and tell me your thoughts, your questions about common issues that kinky couples have and how to get the help you need, because everybody deserves to be seen, heard, understood and helped in their own relationship and sexual journey. Thank you so much for joining me, Wendy.

Speaker 1: 39:54

Thank you, Annette, so much for having me. I appreciate it.

Speaker 2: 39:58

And to my listeners until next time I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.