What If Gender Isn’t Binary—And Never Was?

Think gender is just “man” or “woman”—and anything else is made up?
 Then this conversation is for you.

Because understanding gender-expansive identities isn’t about being “woke” or politically correct—it’s about being human. About expanding your capacity for empathy, connection, and truth.

In this episode, I’m joined by Kate S. Logan, a Marriage & Family Therapist Associate at Gender Wellness Los Angeles. Kate specializes in working with gender-expansive clients and guiding people through identity, relationships, and radical self-expression.

We’re diving into:
 🧠 What “gender-expansive” actually means—and why it’s different from trans, nonbinary, or queer
 💥 The #1 thing people get wrong about gender (and how it hurts everyone—including straight men)

 🌱 Real ways to support someone who’s transitioning—or exploring who they are. 

Whether you’re questioning, curious, or just ready to stop sounding like your uncle in a Fox News comment section, this episode will open your mind and expand your world.

Take a breath, stay open, and let’s go.

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Chapters

• 0:00 Podcast Introduction and Topic Overview
• 2:26 What Does Gender Expansive Mean?
• 8:51 Difference Between Gender and Sex
• 14:05 How Gender Norms Harm Everyone
• 22:43 Gender Identity Evolution Over Time
• 29:55 Supporting Loved Ones Questioning Gender
• 38:26 The Emotional Toll of Misgendering
• 48:01 Practical Tips for Gender Affirmation
• 54:45 Final Thoughts and Resources

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:03

Do the sex pleasure and desire around here. Nothing's off limits. These are the kinds of conversations we save for our boldest group chats, our most trusted friends and, of course, the women's locker room. Think raw, honest and sometimes unapologetically raunchy. If you've been here from the beginning, thank you, and if you're new, welcome to my podcast. Where desire meets disruption and pleasure becomes power. Now let's talk about sex Cheers.

Speaker 1: 1:38

Today's topic is still think there are only two genders. Let's fix that. Why understanding gender expansive identities will change your life. Do you think gender is simply a binary that is just man or woman and anything else is made up? Well, if so, you are overdue for this conversation, because understanding gender expansive identities isn't just about being politically correct. It's not about checking a box or even just being woke. It's about being politically correct. It's not about checking a box or even just being woke. It's about being human. It's about listening, connecting and recognizing that real people exist beyond the narrow boxes we've been taught to accept. So today we are diving into the beautifully complex, deeply personal and often misunderstood world of gender expansive identities. And to help us do it right, I am joined by Kate Logan, a marriage and family therapist at Gender Wellness Los Angeles. Kate provides affirming, client-centered therapy that honors each person's unique identity and lived experience. She specializes in gender identity exploration, relationship challenges and the kind of self-expression that can change lives. Kate doesn't just talk the talk, she helps people live it.

Speaker 1: 2:58

Whether you are gender expansive, supporting someone who is, or simply tired of sounding like your incel uncle rage, posting under Fox News thread or one of my videos, this episode is for you. Look, I constantly get comments about the language I use in my podcast, which is inclusive language. I talk about penis owners, vulva owners. I try to include everyone in today in response to comments I often get from typically men who are unhappy about that. I am having this conversation to help expand minds and maybe change minds so that we can have a more inclusive community here.

Speaker 1: 3:46

But before we dive into this conversation, I want to remind you all that I am over on OnlyFans. That is where I am posting my intimacy and sex how-tos demonstrations, audio-guided self-pleasure content in an effort to help you all have a more pleasure-filled life and help you on your journey to a healthier, happier sex life. So you can find me over there under my handle at TalkSexWithAnnette. You can also find me on Substack, where I'm doing a lot of the same and my handle is the same. There you can also scroll down where you're going to find links to wherever you want to find me and however you want to find me. But, kate, let's dive in. I would love for you to tell my listeners a little bit more about you.

Speaker 2: 4:27

Yeah, hi, annette, it's so good to be here. I'm Kate Logan, associate Marriage and Family Therapist, working in Los Angeles, and I really came into wanting to be a therapist, really wanting to work in sex therapy and gender exploration. I specialize in LGBTQ affirmative psychotherapy and my master's degree program and I also am a second career person. I came out to LA, like everyone else does, to work in entertainment and worked in documentary films for gosh, I guess the better part of about 15 plus years or so, and now that I've kind of switched my career over to working as a therapist, I'm really loving this work. I love working with clients, individuals and couples on their intimacy issues, issues of sex, issues around gender and all the other things that just kind of come with life and that can connect so much with our relationships and our understanding of our bodies and identities and sexuality. So it's been a really fun journey so far and I'm really excited to be here and talk more about that.

Speaker 1: 5:39

I appreciate you joining us for this conversation. I think it's an important one. I definitely want my listenership to have opportunity to understand gender better.

Speaker 1: 5:51

I think it's very confusing to a lot of people, and this is going to add clarity and hopefully, by the end of this conversation, dear listeners, you will understand why it's not just important for you to understand what gender expansive means for other people's sake. Expansive means for other people's sake. It's important for your own sake and your own understanding of who you are as a person, a human and a sexual being. And by the end of this episode, my hope is that not only this conversation will help you be more accepting and loving of others, it's also going to help you understand yourself better as a person, as a romantic partner and as a sexual being. So stay to the end. We will give you our takeaways, like we always do, but get ready to talk about gender expansive identities. Cheers, cheers. So let's just. Let's start from the top here. What does gender expansive actually mean?

Speaker 2: 6:51

Yeah, so basically the term gender expansive it can be kind of an umbrella term to include everyone that is outside of the what we would call the gender binary, meaning like you're either a man or you're a woman and there's no in between and there's no variation and any of those things. Those are just only the one, two categories you can fall into. Gender expansive identities are literally, with the words, expanding beyond that, beyond that strict binary between two kind of opposites. So that can mean a lot of different things under that umbrella term. That might include terms folks might have heard like non-binary or genderqueer. Some folks would even consider like trans women, trans men or trans feminine identified people, trans masculine identified people. Under the umbrella of like gender expansive identities, you're just falling outside of the two kind of boxes that most of us were taught that You're just falling outside of the two kind of boxes that most of us were taught that we have to fit into one theater.

Speaker 1: 7:55

Perhaps an important thing to discuss here too is what is the difference between gender and sex, because I think that's where people get confused. Can you help my listener understand the difference?

Speaker 2: 8:12

Yeah, absolutely. This is something that does get really confusing. So sex usually refers to, like, medically and biologically, what parts you have or what balance of hormones, things that are how your body kind of presents itself, and what medically and biologically we're seeing there. Granted, sometimes I think that concept is used to say, well see, there's only two genders, because there's just people with vaginas and people with penises, and that's men and women, and that's the whole story. And even within, like the idea of sex, there's one. There's people born with what's called sometimes we call intersex or differences of sexual development, meaning that it is not entirely black or white or clear based on their anatomy or hormones or chromosomes or any number of other things, but that would fall under the category of sex.

Speaker 2: 9:12

We're talking about gender. You'll hear people say gender is a social construct and, yes, in a lot of ways that's what differentiates it. Gender is how you present yourself to what you want, to how you want to be perceived as far as whether it's being perceived and presenting as a man or a woman or a non-binary person or something else in kind of the gender expansive universe. And gender really is so culturally bound, right, like we think of what is considered men's clothes and women's clothes, really based on our culture and other cultures that might be entirely different. So gender expression and gender identity are things that are a lot more kind of how people perceive and how people present themselves versus the actual physical body they were born in and the variations they're in the variations they're in.

Speaker 2: 10:46

So it's the expression of your gender is the expression of what you identify as right, yeah, yeah, and how you would hope and want people around you to perceive you as.

Speaker 1: 10:54

Correct and what you are saying is that between the binary that we've been taught, man and woman, between when you're younger, maybe there are boys and girls at school and as they develop. A boy might be teased about being girly or a girl might be teased about looking like a boy. It's like it's a difference in their gender expression correct yeah, yeah, absolutely.

Speaker 2: 11:43

And gender, I mean I guess a gender expression doesn't always necessarily have to be congruent with gender identity. I mean, a really great example of this might be like we think of a static, the late prince there was a lot of those prints expressed himself that was more typically feminine, but it was also very clear, to the best of my knowledge, that he'd always identified very firmly as, like a man. That that was just because he expressed himself in ways that were maybe a little gender bending or considered more feminine in our culture, didn't necessarily mean that he identified outside of being male again, as far as I know. Or like David Bowie is another good example. We can come up with these all day Same. On the other side, like you might have a woman who identifies as a woman and there's kind of no question she has, but she dresses more and presents more typically in our culture male, maybe shorter hair, wearing a suit instead of a dress.

Speaker 2: 12:39

So the gender expression isn't just for, like, trans people or non-binary people. Like we all have gender expression right, I'm wearing makeup today. That's part of my gender expression as a woman, as a cisgender female, and not everyone wears makeup, but I like to because it kind of affirms the way that I feel. So that's really gender expression. Gender identity is okay. I like to think of it as like when you're in the shower, you've got no makeup, you've got no clothes, you're just alone. Like what gender are you? What do you feel like in your heart and your soul? That you are and that's your gender identity.

Speaker 1: 13:16

Okay, so what is the number one thing people get wrong about gender?

Speaker 2: 13:22

Yeah, I mean, I think honestly that I mean the number one thing I hear today is just this idea that there are only two genders, immutable from hilariously conception, which is? Anyone who knows biology knows that at conception we're actually technically all female, but that's you know. Google it if you're sure what that's about. But yeah, this idea that there's this natural quote, unquote gender binary and people who identify outside of that are delusional or like it's just not true or something's wrong. And even if you strip away all these notions of what you feel like or what your gender identity is in your heart, just biologically there is not a neat, clean definition of gender at all. Not only are there differences of sexual development that happen in like a roughly 1% of the population, which is the same amount of people as there are redheads, so it's rare, but it's not that rare we, which is the same amount of people as there are redheads, so it's rare, but it's not that rare.

Speaker 2: 14:26

We're still talking about millions of people who are born with either genitalia that aren't typically like male or female, but born with chromosomes that are neither XX nor XY, who are born with conditions that affect how their hormones are, so you might have someone who grows a beard but has a vagina and breasts, and that is how they were born. You know these intersex kind of conditions. So, just in the face of it, even if you get away all this good with the quote-unquote gender ideology, it's like there is not one biological definition of gender. It's like there is not one biological definition of gender. There just is not. And then if we expand outside of things that maybe even science doesn't quite fully understand yet, the idea of, okay, changes in fashion, changes in roles that people can have, and that's nothing really that new. It's never been that simple. As man, woman, when you're born, we know what it is and that's the end of the story. And I think that's the biggest misconception is one that this is new.

Speaker 1: 15:39

And two, that this is some sort of immutable scientific fact, because it's just not Well. And not to mention that we don't actually know the number of people who don't adhere biologically to what people are saying as man and woman, because you don't always get your hormones checked, you don't always get your chromosomes checked, and one thing I did folks interview an intersex person and one thing that they pointed out was that some people aren't even discovered to be intersex until after they pass and there's an autopsy and then they recognize oh, their reproductive organs weren't what we thought they were.

Speaker 2: 16:20

And then they recognize oh, their reproductive organs weren't what we thought they were. So, yeah, yeah, and it's not uncommon too for people with vaginas, or like external genitalia that appears typically female, to discover that they are intersex when they go to try to get pregnant. Or in some cases it's discovering that there's internal testes, because often those can become cancer and that's something that can affect people's health. So, yeah, and you're right, it's absolutely not as if when you're born, they get all of the data about what, all the different things that are associated with gender. We use terms people may have heard of like assigned female at birth or assigned male at birth. That's because that's how they do it. The baby comes out, they see their genitalia and you kind of go from there. It's not like you're necessarily chronotyped or having hormone levels checked or all these different things, and that might be well and good for an infant at the time, but it's the end of the story and it's not even all of the information that might go into one's even biologicals.

Speaker 1: 17:21

So, to go back, over that, because I do use that often assigned to female birth. You might also hear it stated AFAB or AMAB, which is assigned male at birth, and that just means after the child comes out and you're, or maybe even before you, take a look at them and they're like here's what we believe you to be, right? Yeah, Looking at your body, right? So just to clear up those terminology or terms for my listeners who may not be familiar with them how do you think gender norms, meaning the belief that it's just man and woman, it's just him and her, screw all of us up, Even the straight men in my comments who get angry when I talk about penis owners and vulva owners.

Speaker 2: 18:12

Yeah, oh gosh, that's like there are a lot of ways that that kind of hurts everyone. No-transcript. We associate that with oppression of women and minorities, because it is, and it also like robs men of the chance to not just explore the quote-unquote feminine side but just decide for themselves how they want to feel. Like a man, like what's manly to you doesn't have to be what you know is stereotypically thought of and that might really not resonate with a lot of men, and I mean I'm probably the same as you in that.

Speaker 2: 19:13

I've certainly talked to plenty of like cisgender, meaning that they identify with the gender of their birth. They've never questioned it. Cisgender straight men who even might have some more traditional kind of beliefs, and there's always something that doesn't quite fit for them in the strict rules around gender roles and that hurts them just as much as it it hurts anyone else who doesn't feel like, okay, this isn't quite right for me Limits opportunities in life to have wonderful experiences and to learn about yourself. So, yeah, I think the more restrictive we get in these gender roles and gender binaries, it just a lot of missed opportunities for things outside of that that can be really wonderful and beautiful that everyone can benefit from.

Speaker 1: 20:01

Right. I think a good example is a lot of cis men believe that if they show too much emotion or they access their feelings, or they cry, or they allow themselves to get close to a woman and express love and compassion that that's not manly.

Speaker 1: 20:24

And so their needs, their emotional needs, go unmet right. They can't get the connection that they need or they want. That's just like an obvious way. But I think also another thing to speak to here is it can also be divisive between father and son or brothers or whatever it is. If you are so narrow minded in your idea of what it means to be a man and what that looks like, and then you have a child who comes into being and maybe they don't fit that, your son doesn't fit that mold but still identifies as being a boy and then the father's browbe beating him. You've got to go and want to hunt and fish and don't cry.

Speaker 1: 21:19

And I also want to say we talk a lot about the loneliness epidemic I'd love to hear you speak to that and gender norms, because I don't think women are the problem with men experiencing the loneliness epidemic. I think that our society's definition of what it is to be a man is the problem, because men are not socialized or raised to create connections with other men, to bond and create community. That has typically been quote a woman's job. So women, we aren't lonely because we know how to connect with other women. We know how to create a tribe Right and have that emotional support. We hug each other. My girlfriends stay the night and we like, hold each other and have sleepovers. But men are told you can't do that or you're gay.

Speaker 2: 22:20

Yeah totally.

Speaker 1: 22:21

I would like could you speak to how these gender norms are at the source of the men's loneliness epidemic?

Speaker 2: 22:32

Yeah Now, and as a therapist like I see this all the time with I mean with a lot of men, but in particular millennials, gen X, boomers, where it's this idea that being emotionally vulnerable is weakness and that if you need anyone, that's bad and so like you can't. How can you have close friendships or relationships or community without at least some level of vulnerability, like letting people know who you are or seeing what's actually going on in your life underneath the surface, and so the more like men are socialized to not not have needs, to do everything on their own which nobody can right, and to also, and not only just to not have needs but to not have emotions, to not need support from other people and to like that closeness is somehow it's almost like oh, it's somehow like gay to have close-nail friends, which is no, it's gay. To be attracted to men, that's what gayness is. And somehow like gay to have close-nail friends, which is no, it's gay. To be attracted to men, that's what gayness is, and to want to have relationships with them. Like that, having close friendships should be universal.

Speaker 2: 23:39

I think I get a great example of this.

Speaker 2: 23:40

You were talking about how you have your girlfriends over and it's no big deal to sleep over and sleep all night and, like most of them I know, are not like in group having sleepovers with their friends and then wondering, oh, does this mean I'm a lesbian?

Speaker 2: 23:55

Maybe they're wondering that because they were attracted to their female friends, in which case cool. But I mean every man I don't know any man that I can think of who is like straight, who would sleep in the same king size bed with a friend. If they only had, if there was only one hotel room open, like one guy would be suffering on the floor because why and I mean, okay, that's your preference if you want to sleep in the bed of someone else, but it's sort of these things that become silly, like you're so afraid of closeness with someone of the same gender and that it must mean you're either too feminine or you're too gay, which things which are not inherently bad, but we're told they're bad. If you're a man, you're not supposed to go in that direction, and I think that hurts them a lot. It makes them really lonely.

Speaker 1: 24:40

Yeah, I agree with you. So can gender identity evolve over time, or is it a set thing?

Speaker 2: 24:49

It can definitely evolve over time. I mean, for some folks it is set and they don't really ever question it. I mean myself as a cisgender woman. I, for whatever reason in my biology and psychology I've never really questioned I feel comfortable as a woman, with all the disadvantages it still may bring. I don't feel like that's disconcordant. Others might feel really early on that they are kind of in the wrong body, that people are misgendering them from a very early age. Their understanding of what that means might be different depending on any number of factors.

Speaker 2: 25:26

But there are some trans folks that from like their earliest memories remember like just being drawn to the gender that they weren't assigned kind of toys or ways of dressing or whatever. And then it's really consistent and they just sort of know something is off. They get, they understand a word for it at some point. Okay, there's a thing called being trans. Usually it's okay, that is what I am, and for other people it's not that clear. It might be something that comes up at any kind of point in their life that they're starting to notice.

Speaker 2: 26:00

Okay, the way that maybe I'm expressing myself or the way that people perceive me doesn't quite feel right or doesn't really align with my values and beliefs and what does, and that can be something that some people never kind of settle, like okay, this is what I'm going to be till the end of time. And that might be people that feel like they're more gender fluid or non-binary, because they just want to opt out of the idea of the gender binary altogether. It's sort of like, okay, instead of choosing which football team you're going to play on, you're not in the stadium. You're just like, no, I'm not into football, so everyone else can go play, that's fine, but I'm going to go do something else, yeah, and so that's. It's definitely not something I think is ever set, in the same way that our sexual orientations can sometimes be like, completely clear to us from the very beginning and never shift, and for other people things might be a little bit more fluid and like all those things I think are just as fine and valid as anything.

Speaker 1: 26:59

Can you clearly explain what gender fluidity is?

Speaker 2: 27:05

Yeah, good question. So people who identify as gender fluid basically are saying that they do not identify as the same gender or vice versa, the male they might identify as not binary but sort of feeling like their expression or their kind of sense of of internal gender identity shifts. That doesn't necessarily mean that it's like bouncing back and forth between two binaries of man and woman. For some people it might feel that way, but for others it might just kind of be more of like okay, it's a there's like feminine vibe times and male vibe time and or just something all together outside of the binary that maybe we don't quite have the language for. But the idea of the fluid is that it's they don't feel like it's set still right now.

Speaker 1: 28:07

Not all people know right off the bat, or are willing to know right off the bat, that they don't identify as the gender they've been assigned, and sometimes, especially for older generations. Now, I think Gen Z is a lot more on top of this, but there are millennials, gen Xers even, who are just now realizing oh, I don't really identify as female, I think maybe I'm non-binary or whatever it might be. Yeah, or whatever it might be, yeah. What would you say to the people around them who love them and then find out that they're questioning that? How could they react to that? To be as supportive as possible, even if they might be a little bit like the guy in my comments section who's like yeah, not is like it's only man and a woman. Quit using that other language, because that man might someday have someone he loves come out and say I don't think I am a woman or a man and say I don't think I am a woman or a man. What are some things you can do in that moment?

Speaker 2: 29:36

even if it's something you don't fully understand. What an absolutely great question One, I mean. I think the number one thing is to listen to the person. You can ask questions, but also respect that some questions might be too personal, for example, depending on how close the relationship is like. Don't ask someone about what they may or may not want to do with their genitals, like you wouldn't ask anyone else that unless you were very, very close with them. So same thing here. But also it's really just about not making assumptions and being like patient and just talking to the person and seeing what they need.

Speaker 2: 30:13

And a lot for a lot of people, especially if the person telling them that they feel like they might be trans or non-binary or gender fluid if it's, say, a family member or someone that's very close, they've known for a really long time there can be a real like kind of mourning period where they're kind of mourning the loss of the version of that person that they've known for however many years. So it's a very real thing and it doesn't necessarily mean that you're being transphobic or not accepting it's a big change and all change involves some level of grief, even if it's change for the better. Especially like to parents, recognize that it's okay to grieve the loss of the gender version of the child that you had and to also, at the same time, be open and embrace, like who they're becoming and people. Contrary to a lot of the messages in the media, a lot of people do want to take a lot of time and really explore and experiment with things and learn about themselves and at the end of that journey they may circle back to being like cisgender and identifying gender resent at birth.

Speaker 2: 31:27

They may not. There may be something else, but you know. So that's all valid and the agenda is not to be like, okay, if you have these feelings, you have to immediately go get a surgery and get a hormone. Like no, not at all, it might be a really healthy especially for younger people type of experimentation that we all do to understand kind of who we are in the world. So that just because someone's questioning doesn't mean that there's a foregone conclusion one way or another. And to be patient and like open-minded with that. Yeah, try being curious yeah what is?

Speaker 1: 32:01

that. What does that feel like for you? You know what does that mean absolutely? What are you feeling? Approaching things with curiosity, especially when I think it's normal to feel fear when something that is foreign to you or steps outside of your quote belief system is presented. But if you can take a moment to be curious, instead of angry or hateful or shutting your mind down like what is the harm that's going to come from that, yeah, absolutely, and I'll share that.

Speaker 2: 32:40

One of my siblings is trans and non-binary and this is just my experience. When they came out, it was sort of like this wonderful moment and we were like, oh, that makes sense. They were someone that is or was assigned female at birth. We would probably describe them as like a tomboy growing up, and when they finally came out as non-binary it was almost like, oh, this is more of their authentic identity, that like we're all missing and didn't have the language for at the time and at least for me, watching kind of their transition, both socially and medically, was so much. Oh, this is the same person I've always known.

Speaker 2: 33:25

I'm just really glad they're in a time and a place when they can be kind of the most them that they can be, that they're their own most authentic self and that they're perceived by the world the way that they want to be. They can dress and look the way that feels best to them and at the end of the day, even if someone thinks that there's something morally wrong with that, it's like you know what my sibling does every day. There's something morally wrong with that. It's like you know what my sibling does every day. They get up, they walk the dog, they say goodbye to their partner and they go to work and they come home and they buy groceries. And they're not here to convert anyone or to bother anyone. They're just existing in the world the way that they feel most authentic and most comfortable, and I think that they're certainly a less anxious, better person for that, because they can be comfortable in their own skin.

Speaker 1: 35:18

Well, and let's talk about gender affirming care. You spoke about people's first questions being what are you going to do with your genitals? Are you going to get top surgery? But the same people who are freaked out by that are okay with women cutting open their boobs and adding size in. That's gender affirming care. That's a woman feeling more feminine, more womanly by adding size to her boobs, because that's again what society has said makes a woman womanly. Liposuction to make her stomach flat, the PBLs to make that booty round, I mean, and same for men, right? That's all gender affirming care and you're okay with that.

Speaker 2: 36:10

It's all gender affirming care and you're okay with that. Yeah, yeah, now this is. That is definitely a really good point and something you say all the time is like one, and I love the like oh, I'm against pronouns.

Speaker 2: 36:20

Like we all have pronouns, it's just a feature of our language and like and gender affirming medical care is for everyone, not just trans folks or non-binary folks. Like exactly what you said. And the idea of like gender expression is also something we all do. Like we all express what gender we feel like. We are in different ways and that can even vary widely between people who do identify as a man or a woman. There's not one version of those things that would be so boring if there was, but it's like the slap the word trans on it and all of a sudden people really start to freak out and I think it's honestly. It's a lot of fear mongering over a very small percentage of the population is really essentially not doing anything that different from what many of people do To feel, like I said, more feminine, more masculine, in a way that feels right to them.

Speaker 1: 37:16

Right. So getting back to pronouns, what would you say to the guy talking to out there who is so adamant about pronouns and the use of pronouns being a certain way him and her and nothing in between? What would you say to that person?

Speaker 2: 37:47

yeah, there's a lot of things I would say. One is I would say like, no matter what your beliefs are, when you don't use someone's preferred pronouns or the pronouns that they use, it's just disrespect that, regardless of what you believe, you need to know that you're communicating to that person.

Speaker 2: 38:07

I don't respect you and I'm going to use words to describe you that you have specifically told me not to, and I think we can all relate to how that would feel bad, even if, let's say, you're a woman that got married and changed your last name because you wanted to. If someone who is like I, don't believe in marriage, I don't think women should take their husband's last name. It's patriarchal and this and that I'm just going to keep calling you your maiden name. That would be really disrespectful, even if they sincerely held that belief. And so it goes both ways, right? Regardless of what you believe, it's about showing the other person respect, and for people that say, okay, well, you know, they them is grammatically incorrect. The literal dictionary has tweeted I think that it's not grammatically incorrect, so they're losing on that battle.

Speaker 2: 38:57

And it's not about grammar, right? It's hard to learn new things and to feel like you might mess them up and someone might be mad or offended. I get it. When I was trying to remember my siblings' new pronouns, it took me three years to stop making mistakes. It takes practice and that's okay. I think the vast majority of folks that have pronouns that you wouldn't naturally want to use for them understand that people are not going to be perfect and that we're kind of. You know. We're conditioned to use pronouns for people that present a certain way. It's okay to make mistakes, just be respectful. It's just about like basic respect.

Speaker 1: 39:37

Yeah, you're being a bully. I mean, if you're okay with that, if that's who you want to be in this world and in this life, certainly that's your choice, but it's bullying. And that brings me to what is the emotional toll of being misgendered over and over and over again. And how can we better understand that pain that these people, these folks, are experiencing?

Speaker 2: 40:05

Yeah, I would say for someone that maybe feels like they're not quite sure why this is a big deal. Imagine if, everywhere you went, everyone misgendered you, that mistook you for the gender that you're not, if you're a man, and if, everywhere you went, people are like oh excuse me, ma'am All right, she needs help over here referring to you. Like imagine how that would bother you to constantly be like I hear people doing this, don't I look like a man. I want to be perceived as a man. I need to correct people over and over again.

Speaker 2: 40:43

This is disrespectful, all those things you might feel, and if that's not fine, you can imagine. It's just sort of imagine like somebody if you were somewhere and people kept using your wrong name or mispronouncing your name constantly or anything else that is just infused in our daily lives and our speech and communicating with each other. It's like it can be like kind of like a little paper cut each time, a reminder that either you're being disrespected by the people around you who you might just be interacting with throughout the course of your day you have no choice to interact with them or be that you're reminded that you're not being perceived in the way that you really want to be, and that can be so painful, especially when it happens over and over again, and so I think that's really the importance of doing our best with respecting people's pronouns, because it is like a death by a thousand cuts for a lot of folks and that adds a lot of stress and anxiety to their day. That's not necessarily helping anyone.

Speaker 1: 43:00

Right, do you really want to be that person? I'm like, do you really want to be that person? And I want to say I had this really recently, this really beautiful moment where a trans person reached out to me and thanked me for doing my best to always use inclusive language and expressed how it made a difference for them and it gave them the opportunity to participate in the conversation and learn the things they needed to learn and trans non-binary people to exist right now in this country, in this time when it's so dangerous and they're being treated so horribly by our own government, right and for me to do even a tiny bit to create some sort of safe space, some acknowledgement of their existence and their humanity, like just by using words.

Speaker 2: 44:16

It's so simple, absolutely absolutely. And it it signals that, like you're, I mean a safe person in the sense that one I mean. The reality is a lot like trans folks or like anyone kind of an lgbtq identity has a legitimate fear of violence in a lot of situations that, like straight or cis people just aren't going to think about because we don't have to experience that, and so I think that communicating that just hey, I'm not going to say something overtly hurtful, I'm not going to try to beat you up, I'm not going to fire you from your job, I'm not going to whatever it is is really powerful, right, and it doesn't take a lot of work. It takes a little bit of okay, I'm going to sort of retrain how I phrase some things, but not that big of a deal at the end of the day.

Speaker 2: 45:06

And I think you know, like if someone, let's say, if you were one of the only people who was a Christian in your town, that everyone else followed some other religion and went to a different temple or a different place, and if every time someone talked about religion and how important it was, or faith, they never referred to Christianity or they never acknowledged your holidays or they never put that up, like eventually you really start to feel isolated and then add in what if there was a bunch of rhetoric saying it's wrong to be Christian and these people should are sick in the head and I'm not going to respect if someone wears a cross, I'm not going to let them into my establishment, like you could imagine.

Speaker 2: 45:46

It's like that. And look, these are things that have happened in places in the world, whereas it's not something that is fictitious and like that would be awful and that would be unfair and that's not the kind of world I would want to live in. And so, when it comes to trans and non-binary, like respecting those rights, like again, it's like you don't have to alter your beliefs but you should treat everyone with respect, because that's what you would want for yourself and isn't, like the golden rule, something maybe we all can think about a little bit more these days.

Speaker 1: 46:18

Yeah, I'll tell you.

Speaker 1: 46:19

what I have done is I've just started using they, them for everybody and it's been really nice for me because what I've also found is when people know that the gender of the person I'm hanging out with or spending time with, they'll make assumptions. When I use they them, they don't know the gender. They'll make assumptions. When I use they them, they don't know the gender. They can't make assumptions, you know. Yeah, it's so true. I love using that in the workspace, I love using that in my personal space and it really it works. It works well and it's a quick way to learn to and include everyone. So if there is someone right now who is looking to explore their gender for the first time, what are some things they should know and what can help them on their journey?

Speaker 2: 47:10

Yeah well, I'd be remiss if I didn't say, if they're in California, they can look at gender wellness. We have several very good therapists who have a lot of experience in this. That can kind of help just explore and answer questions and guide people through the process of understanding their gender identity or transitioning, if that's what they decide to do. But outside of therapy, which, of course, I'm biased towards, I would say getting out into the community can be so helpful, and that can also be online. There's a lot of great online communities.

Speaker 2: 47:42

But ideally, if you're in a place where there's LGBTQ events or communities or they're trans-specific or just kind of queer gatherings generally, that can be a great place to explore, to talk to other people who may have gone through the same things, to try presenting a different way in an environment where it is safe and that, if it doesn't feel right for you, it's like it's okay. Most of the people there are going to know what that's like and then that's really important and almost can't be replaced by anything else. There's a lot of great resources in books and things like that. That can be very helpful, but at the end of the day, I think it's like reaching out and connecting to other people who have gone through what you might be going through and are either on the other side of it or also going through it at the same time. Out of the isolation that often you can feel we're going through hard things or afraid that we're going to be discriminated against if we talk about what we're thinking that's getting us place.

Speaker 1: 48:47

And what are some micro moments of gender affirmation that can have a big impact on someone's day? So for a parent who's just found out that their child thinks they might be non-binary or trans, or even if you're just a friend or a sibling or whatever, what are some micro moments you can make sure happen in your loved one's day that can make a big difference?

Speaker 2: 49:18

I would say one thing right off the top of my head that I know I'm personally working on doing more for myself is when I introduce myself to new people, I generally just say my pronouns to normalize it.

Speaker 2: 49:31

I know most people are going to see me and assume she, her, and they're correct. I, she, her are my pronouns. But I had this experience a little while ago with my sibling who's. I had this experience a little while ago with my sibling who's, now in binary at a gathering where we didn't know most of the people there and it was almost like they had to. It was this awkward okay, people are misgendering them, but then you just met them. Do you want to be like? Oh, actually, my pronouns are this.

Speaker 2: 49:54

It's almost like coming out and making it a thing when we're just making chit chat at a party, like nobody is necessarily wanting to talk about gender identity or their gender. You know it's just introducing yourself. So I think for me, like to, because it's low stakes, right, I'm not going to likely be misgendered. I can say hi, I'm Kate, she, her are my pronouns, and then if someone around me has pronouns that people are not, naturally going to think oh, okay, those are the pronouns, I think go with that person, they might feel a lot safer and kind of have permission, or they have an ally to back them up, to be like oh hi, I'm, you know so-and-so, I go by, they, them, or he, him or whatever it is for them.

Speaker 2: 50:37

Just normalizing that is like just a thing that doesn't have to be a big deal and that doesn't even have to be a whole discussion. It's just letting people know like the same thing is kind of like your name, like this is just how I want you to refer to me. So I think that's a big thing. And also, I think just like communicating that you love and support them, without also focusing so much on the gender identity and forgetting that, like they're whole people with the rest, their whole other lives going on and a lot of times nothing to do with gender identity. That's just one aspect of their lives. So like acknowledging it but not centering it so much that it feels like that's the only thing that you see right, you can see them as a whole person.

Speaker 1: 51:20

Are there any last things? You want to leave my listeners with Any last pieces of advice, things you think they really need to know or that will help them understand the idea of gender being more than this binary more than this binary.

Speaker 2: 51:46

yeah, it's part of me honestly really wants to like speak to kind of all the the haters out there at the same time. I don't know that I'm you know, me like a liberal who is a therapist or for transgender people in Los Angeles is gonna convince anyone. So I'm not sure I'll go down that road, although, believe me, it's tempting, because I have arguments with my computer and my TV about this stuff all day. So I think what I will leave with is that you know if you are someone that is feeling unsure about your gender identity or you're feeling really sure, but the pathway there is really scary and difficult and maybe feels like it's impossible, but right now, these times can make people feel like to make a choice one way or another. Right now you have to just decide.

Speaker 2: 52:31

So you know like what team you're on, and I just encourage those folks to slow down. There's no rush. If you're absolutely sure, jump in and do what is right for you. If you're not sure, that's also okay. And this idea that the people are rushing and making rash decisions, I think a lot of times actually makes people feel like they need to do that and that's, you know, with any big shift. It's like take your time, listen to yourself, find community, talk to a therapist, talk to someone else who's gone through it, and give yourself that space to just be curious about yourself and then, no matter what the outcome, you'll know yourself better and probably just be a more reflective, humble person in the world. And couldn't we use more of that these days?

Speaker 1: 53:22

Yeah, I love that, and I think I would like to sum this up with I do have a couple and out of all of the people that listen and comment, it is truly only a couple of cis men at least that's how they're presenting themselves who come to my comments to make angry comments every time I use a language that is inclusive, and what I want to say is I know that you keep coming back to my content because there's something that you want to get out of it, and I create content for every person because I think everyone benefits from learning more about their sexuality, their sex life, intimacy, how to connect with and love each other, which is really what it all comes down to.

Speaker 1: 54:12

And I honor cis men, I honor cis women, I honor trans people and I just encourage you keep coming back. I know it makes you angry when I talk about penis owners and vulva owners and AFAB people and AMAB people, but keep coming back, even if it makes you angry, because I think what you'll find is, the more that you listen, the more you hear that your brain is, your mind is going to open itself, whether you want it to or not, and a more inclusive world is going to be a better world in the end. So thank you for taking time to help my listeners understand this a little bit more. I know that it's confusing. We have not been taught this stuff. We're having to unlearn, which is much harder in some cases than learning, and then we're having to relearn. It's scary, it's frustrating, it's confusing, I get it, but it's a work worth doing. I would love it if you could tell my listeners and viewers where they can find out more about you.

Speaker 2: 55:13

Yeah, well, first place to go is gender wellness website, which is genwellorg. You can also find us on Instagram and actually let me make sure that I'm giving you the right handle. So we are at gender wellness LA all one word on Instagram and socials, and so you can see I have a little bit of content on there. I'm not the best at I'm an elder millennials. I'm not used to making all the videos and stuff, but I'm getting better at it. I give little self-care tips and other fun things like that, hoping to do more kind of educational things around there. But yeah, you can learn about me at genderwell or genwellorg, our website, or on Instagram and, my sorry, I can cut that out of my Instagram handle, but I'll just stick to.

Speaker 1: 56:04

Jeff Gwalt as well. Perfect, perfect, all right guys. And if you have any questions, comments about this topic and you are on my YouTube channel, which is at TalkSex with Annette, you can drop it right into the comments section below the video. You can also email me at Annette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom. You can scroll down to the link in the description of this podcast and send me a voice note on my speak pipe as well. There's lots of ways to get your comments to me and I will do the best I can to get those questions answered. If you're looking for a sidekick in your intimacy journey, a cheerleader, if you will, I have my books open right now for intimacy coaching and you can find out more about that at TalkSexWithAnettecom. Thank you so much for joining me today. I appreciate all the information you've shared.

Speaker 2: 56:55

It's been awesome to be here here. I love talking about the sex and I look forward to hopefully talking to you again soon.

Speaker 1: 57:02

Perfect and to my listeners until next time I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers ring loop.