Talk Sex with Annette (Locker Room Talk & Shots)
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Talk Sex with Annette (Locker Room Talk & Shots)
Dating Is Rigged. Here's How to Win: Mindful Dating Masterclass
Ever feel like dating is just one big, soul-sucking game where you're constantly bending over backward to be what they want—only to end up disappointed again? Turns out, the problem isn’t your profile, your texts, or your date-night strategy—it’s that you’ve been abandoning yourself in the process. In this episode, I sit down with dating coach Marie Thouin to break down mindful dating—a radically different approach that’s all about showing up as your full, unfiltered self so you attract connections that actually fit. We dive into why mainstream dating advice sets you up for failure, how to use dating apps without losing your mind, and game-changing principles that will help you navigate love from a place of self-trust instead of desperation. If you're exhausted by modern dating, this conversation might just be the reset you need.
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Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's locker room and Shots topic is Swipe Smarter, love Deeper the Mindful Dating Playbook.
Speaker 1:I have been single for a year, as most of y'all know. If you've been around for any time. I have not been dating for a full year, as I have been working through healing and growing and preparing for what I hope will be my next great love. I don't know that I have the right strategies in place for finding what I want, and it's okay, because today I have a guest with me that is going to help me on my journey, which is going to be one of intentionally dating. I have said on this podcast before and to everybody in my life that when I date again, I want to do it with intention, because one thing I do know right now is what I want, which is something I've never known before and kind of what I've been preparing for as I get ready to embark on being open to dating again. And today my expert is literally an expert on mindful dating, intentional dating.
Speaker 1:My guest is Marie Thuan. She is the author of what is Compersion, understanding Positive Empathy in Consensually Non-Monogamous Relationships. She has been featured in several publications and podcasts, including Elle, the Savage Love Cast, the Times of London and Huffington Post. Marie has also published Seminal Research Studies, the first encyclopedia entry on compersion, and is the creator of whatiscompersioncom, a popular website that features her research, blogs and resources on the topic of compersion. She is the founder of Love Insight, a mindful dating and relationship coaching practice, where she supports and guides people of all backgrounds and relational orientations to create intentional and vibrant love lives. And I do want to point out though she has a thorough background in compersion and non-monogamy. We will be talking today about dating generally for people who are looking for all sorts of relationship styles, monogamy included. Marie, will you tell my listeners a little bit more about you?
Speaker 2:Thank you, annette, for having me back on the podcast. I'm so excited to be here and thank you for that last thing. You said that intentional dating and mindful dating really includes everyone, from people who want monogamy to people who don't. It's really all good. It's about self-knowledge. So a little bit more about me.
Speaker 2:I am a mindful dating and relationship coach. I'm originally from Quebec, canada, and I've lived in California for about 21 years now, so more than half of my life and I love it. I love the spirit of innovation and just novel intentional thinking that I find in abundance here, and I am passionate about relationships. I've always felt that there's an elephant in the room in our society and that is the idea that everyone is told they should want the same thing and have this perfect Disney story of love over the course of their life and that should fall in their lap, of their life and that should fall in their lap, and that's just not the case. You know, we all have a very complex journey in our intimate lives and I think the more we honor that journey, the more we are present to ourselves and to our growth within that journey, then the happier we can be, no matter what the external outcome, no matter what that looks like be, no matter what the external outcome, no matter what that looks like.
Speaker 1:Yes, and I'm excited to talk about that, I'm excited to learn from you. So, listeners, your motivation to stay to the end is that by the end, we will have a strategy, you and I, you and I, listener, we're going to have a strategy, I'm going to have one, you're going to have one as we embark on our dating journey together, because I'm sure there's some of you out there that are right here with me and, of course, we'll have more resources for you, so that you don't go into dating just like fumbling around. You don't mess with other people's feelings, you don't mess with your own feelings, and I mean that's what we want, right? We don't want to do any damage. We want to find love. That's what we want, right? We don't want to do any damage, we want to find love. That's what we want to do.
Speaker 1:So I'm ready to learn, marie, I'm so excited about this. So, cheers, let's talk about finding love intentionally, mindfully, cheers. I want to just jump in with how does your concept of mindful dating differ from what would be traditional dating strategies? Not that I, I don't know is there a traditional dating strategy. It seems sort of like we're all just throwing ourselves at each other out there. But how is mindful dating unique ourselves at each other out there? But how?
Speaker 2:how is mindful dating unique? Well, most dating advice out there focuses on trying to manipulate other people into liking us. So we're externally focused, we're focused on the other. And how can we get into their minds to get them to choose us? And it positions us in a way like in a mindset of self-rejection, of saying like, well, just me being me is probably not going to be good enough, so I need to figure out how to convince someone else that they should desire me as a partner, someone else that they should desire me as a partner. So that is problematic because it creates this dating persona that is not necessarily aligned with who we are deep down. And well, if we do get into a relationship from that place, then sooner or later who we truly are is going to come out and it's going to come into conflict with the image that maybe this other person has of us and we are not going to feel whole.
Speaker 2:So my dating strategy that I coined mindful dating is the idea that instead of self-abandoning in our dating process, we need to self-reclaim and self-honor, and that is not as simple as just saying like, oh, just be spontaneous, just be yourself, and everything is going to be fine because we are so trained to try to be somebody else and it's not that simple sometimes to just be our authentic self.
Speaker 2:So it's a journey, the process of uncovering who we truly are. And, you know, the process of dating with an open heart and with true authenticity can be healing, it can be empowering and, of course, it can and often is challenging because it forces us to express ourselves with our true selves. So that's my philosophy, but I think it's so worth investing in investing the time and the energy in that philosophy because it leaves us feeling more connected to ourselves, with our integrity. And when we do connect with people and maybe we enter a relationship with someone new, then we're not abandoning part of ourselves, we're doing it in a space of wholeness, and then that connection can be truly authentic and truly rooted in truth rather than in a story that's not ours.
Speaker 1:I love that you brought up the self-abandonment piece in order to date right, could you speak to what that can look like so that maybe someone who's hearing it but they're thinking what does it mean to self-abandon? Because I think it happens in subtle ways oftentimes in dating, like we don't even know we're doing it and then suddenly we've managed to get into a relationship and we're wondering why there is so much conflict and why we're feeling smaller and like we've lost something core to ourselves.
Speaker 2:So there's so many examples that I could give. In dating, you know, I see so many people trying to feature themselves, whether it's on a dating app or in real life when they're meeting somebody in a generically pleasing version of themselves. So, for example, I had a client who was a wonderful gay man, he was an accountant and he was a spiritualist. He was someone who loved meditating, who was on a lifelong spiritual path, and when I looked at his profile for the first time, all he emphasized about himself was that he is a very stable person. You know he's got a solid career. He's this just like really solid partner choice. But there was nothing about you know his other interests, like you know his interest in spirituality, or nothing really about how funny he was.
Speaker 2:He was a very hilarious person, still is, and you know like there was this impulse in him to self-abandon, in a way where he would pick and choose the parts of himself that he thought everyone would like, and when I asked him why, he said well, I've been rejected by my family and by some co-workers before for being really interested in spirituality, so I'm afraid I'm going to get rejected again by people on the dating app. So that's a great example of self-abandonment is showing up with only part of ourselves that we think other people are going to like, but then depriving ourselves and them from the full version, and really like depriving ourselves from magnetizing somebody who would love us as we are. So it takes courage, you know, when we have been rejected or something like that, it takes courage to go out and say like, yes, that's who I am, I can honor that, I can accept that and reclaim that in me. And okay, some people are not going to like that and they're going to move on. They're going to swipe left, they're going to say no to me and that is okay.
Speaker 2:I don't need everyone to choose me. I need one person or maybe you know more than one if you're non monogamous, but you're there to connect with someone who is going to want to honor the full you. So I could give you so many more examples of self abandonment, but that, I think, kind of encapsulates it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely, I think that captures it. I think there are especially for women in our culture. One way that we often self-abandon is by making our personalities smaller our voice softer In my case.
Speaker 1:Obviously, being a woman who has a platform based on sex and sexuality, based on sex and sexuality, I know that for, especially if I'm I'm also bisexual, pansexual, but especially cis men, that can be really intimidating. In my age range, my, you know, men may be more uncomfortable with being with a woman who talks about sex publicly and I have found myself, like when I really like someone, like just getting smaller or getting in my head, like not asking, maybe, the questions I want to on a podcast episode or saying the thing I want to, because would that upset him? Would that lead to an argument later? Would that lead to, you know, an argument later? Would that?
Speaker 1:lead to you know ruffled feathers or just you know I could feel the spiciness, the bad spiciness, after you know something like that. But the reality is then other things suffer, right, when you self abandon, your career suffers, your you know relationship with friends, suffer, your relationship with yourself, your you know relationship with friends, your relationship with yourself. So it seems to me like an important part of your strategy is also knowing yourself right, because I think there are times that I've self abandoned in ways that I didn't even realize, because I didn't know myself well enough to know that I was self abandoning.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah Right. And that process of knowing ourselves, it's that process of self-discovering ourselves, Like it's not a stagnant thing, you don't just do it once and it's over. I think it's a lifelong commitment to always being curious about ourselves, just like we would be in a relationship with a partner. I think it's important to always maintain that curiosity and not assume that we just know somebody else and that's all they're going to be. We can apply that same curiosity and intrigue about our relationships with ourselves. Like who am I becoming? It's maybe a better question than who am I? I think I mean both of these questions are good, but who am I today? And never giving up on asking that question, Because that kind of curiosity and fluidity in our self concept can also ensure that we're going to have very alive relationships that are not stagnant.
Speaker 1:How does one know when they're ready to date? This has been a big question for me. It isn't until like very recently that I've been like, I think. I think I'm ready to at least be open to the possibility of like. If I stumble into someone in the wild and it's like sexy vibes, am I going to be open to receiving that, exchanging that and exploring it? And I mean, this has been a question that's been popping up for months for me. Am I ready? And then I'm like, fuck, no, and then I've been. You know, the other thing is I, over this past year, I've really developed a deep satisfaction in my life without a relationship.
Speaker 1:I have a thriving career that has all of these possibilities. I've got this amazing community of friends I'm feeling really I've got. My health is in the best place. I'm feeling really good about myself is in the best place. I'm feeling really good about myself Also my libido is on fire, so it's kind of like my, I think.
Speaker 1:sometimes my libido is like hey, maybe dating is a good idea for me, but but it is a question if I'm going to date mindfully and intentionally, I want to go into it with the. I'm actually ready for this. So what are some indicators when someone's really ready to to and should be in the dating pool, and what are some indicators for people that are like you aren't ready to date? Don't go fuck up someone else's life, please. Just saying some people do that.
Speaker 2:Right? Well, one of the main indicators, I think, is do I want to be dating from a place of should or from a place of I really want to? Because one of the biggest issues that I encounter in my coaching practice is people who come to me and they're like I feel like I should have a relationship, I should be married, I should have children or I should be dating. And when I interrogate that, it's like the should actually comes from external voices, external sources of authority. Maybe their family members want them to be married and have children and maybe they've inherited the script from society, but there's a big no inside of themselves the script from society, but there's a big no inside of themselves. They're not totally listening to that no. So it becomes very confusing. Like they might be dating but they don't really really want to be in a relationship.
Speaker 2:So I think that's important to really be discerning. Like is there a part of you that does not want to date, that does not want a relationship? And what is that part saying? Like, why? Is it because you're afraid to lose your freedom and independence? Is it because you're afraid to be heartbroken again? Is it because you're afraid that it's going to bring up some really undesirable parts of you or old patterns that you've experienced before and you don't know that you have the strength and the self-centeredness to not fall into when you get into your next.
Speaker 1:Can I just start answering some of these, because I think that this is an important because I think these are things that a lot of people think.
Speaker 2:And.
Speaker 1:I'm so I think the reason why I desire to find someone is I. There are times like A intimacy and I love I do really love having a person that's like you know, that I share everything with, like I like that I love a deep, deep connection.
Speaker 1:I love someone I can have really amazing, regular exploratory sex with. However, obviously I've not done that successfully in the past and, and to my detriment, I haven't wanted to date, because I mean number one. I really don't want to go through the excruciating pain of a breakup of loss that I have experienced, like I'm like dude, not interested in experiencing, and I do actually more than I think ever in my past before. I have a lot of fear around re-experiencing that level of pain and loss. I also feel like I've established this really great relationship with myself. I do feel like I really know what I want in a partner. But I think you came to that question of and I hear this from so many people, I hear this from so many people like, what if I fall into old patterns?
Speaker 2:What if?
Speaker 1:all this resilience I've worked to build, what if the skills of discernment I think that I have fail me? And then I find myself back, reduced to who I felt I was, when I had self betrayed and all of that and self abandoned, so what do you do with that?
Speaker 2:That's such a good question and honestly, like, my first thought on that is a bit of a shameless plug. You know, for me or people like me, as coaches you know dating coaches or therapists I think part of our job with clients who are on a dating journey is to help be a mirror for that and help reflect and help interrogate Okay, are you falling into an old pattern and what does that look like? And how do you create a new pattern? If we've already established like okay, I don't want to self-abandon, I want to show up with the fullest version of me, I want to communicate from a place of authenticity and courage, then really articulating what that looks like in practice as you're dating, and having a support system around you to hold you accountable to that and not just let you go down the same old road without any reflection, can be really life-changing.
Speaker 2:It can make the difference from going down the same old road, maybe for the next 10 years of your life, or actually, you know, nipping it in the bud or taking a new direction, a different direction and showing up in a whole different way, and that's how we grow. I think that's why, to me, like, dating is so powerful, because it's this alchemy of growth, it's this opportunity to show up in different ways and kind of rewire our brain and our patterns in real time. So even if someone or you you know, are afraid to go down the same road, into the same old pattern, I would encourage you to maybe not stop things you know like, depending on other factors of course, but if you can go into it with a really strong mindset and a really strong commitment to not repeating the same story but actually like having a clear vision and that's part of the mindful dating framework that I teach is having a clear vision of how you want to show up in this next relationship can be so transformative.
Speaker 1:I love that you bring up having whether you get a coach or a therapist or having a support network of friends. I'm very fortunate to have a couple of people very close to me that do mirror Like when I start to.
Speaker 1:I've had a couple of interactions, one kind of beginning dating situation, where I was really able to sit with my friends and they were able to be that mirror and say, hey, these behaviors are suspect in that, like that looks a little familiar and something that was interesting in that I dipped my toe in the water of it and what meaning I tried it out anyways. Meaning I tried it out anyways. And what also was a little, I had a little euphoria because when I started to see behaviors because I'm obviously we all know we're drawn to some of our trauma- from the past because it's comfortable.
Speaker 1:But this time, when I started to see behaviors from the individual that I was interacting with that reflected sort of things. I my my old many times. I'm going to get out my like, you know, whatever the machete, and I'm going to start just cutting and it's harder, right, because it's a harder thing to take a different path and say, oh, you know what? Actually, this is familiar, I'm not doing it, I know where it leads.
Speaker 1:I'm going to cut this path, and it felt really good to make a different choice and also to find that things that used to be sort of my um would addict me to someone had become my new ick.
Speaker 2:I'm like beautiful Right, oh my gosh. That is progress, that is change.
Speaker 1:I literally called up a friend. I'm like, oh my God, what used to be my heroine in a in a relationship would draw me in. It's my new ick Like. I was like, oh, and it was so wonderful because I had this moment of like, wow, I really have been. I'm not just bullshitting myself. I have been doing work this year and I'm getting somewhere which makes me think that, yeah, I mean, I'm not in the mood to like aggressively try to find someone. I don't feel that need.
Speaker 1:But I am, I do want to be open. I do want to like be open to meeting people and to the possibility.
Speaker 2:I'm open to going on dates, you know.
Speaker 1:so once a person has identified that they're ready enough I don't know if there's ever a completely ready, but you know, like I'm like, all right, probably over the next year, I what are some things I can do to to prepare with intention for dating rather than just flip? At this point I don't plan on going on apps, but I know a lot of people are. So what are some things you can put in place to like embark on the journey and do it mindfully and intentionally?
Speaker 2:Well, I'll speak generally, generally and then we can speak more specifically about dating. On apps, because I have a whole system for that too, yeah, but more generally, for mindful dating, I always get people started with a clear vision, the idea of really being clear about who you are, what you want in relationships. Are you there to just empower yourself by dating a lot of people and you're not really wanting a committed relationship or a traditional relationship. Are you really wanting that next level, like I want someone to engage with at a deep level, I want to find my person, et cetera. Like, what are you actually craving? And that process is often the disentanglement of what you've been taught to want, that conditioning and what your heart really wants. And that is a really beautiful process to get clear on that. And also, you know what are your deal breakers, what are your must haves, all of that stuff. So that is foundational work and the next step is also I mean, it's within that but the idea of having an empowered self-concept and knowing your value, knowing what you bring to the table, wanting to share your gifts and your qualities with others. So oftentimes I ask my clients to write a list of what they feel like they would bring to a relationship, like what are their gifts and qualities. And that can be an interesting, sometimes challenging exercise for people, because they're so trained to think in terms of what can I get from this other person, rather than what do I bring, what do I want to share? And sometimes the problem is more like oh, I'm not trained to even value myself and recognize that I have a lot to share. So that process of really self-honoring and having an empowered self-concept is foundational to going out there with a sense of your own value and a desire to share. Right, yeah.
Speaker 2:And then we get into strategy. And that means okay, like what feels aligned in terms of actions. Do I want to be on the apps or not, and why? Like, how do I feel when I go on the apps and can I, you know, can I go on them in a way that feels aligned, or is it just not going to work for me? And are there other ways that I can meet new people? Are there activities and social clubs or, you know, like hobbies that I can take? That will not feel like a waste of time if I don't meet somebody to date there, but they feel like nourishing to my soul, but they also allow me to meet new people.
Speaker 2:And can I show up with that openness and that banter and that ability to make new connections? And what does it take for me to show up with that openness and that banter and that ability to make new connections? And what does it take for me to show up with that skill that you know like? In a way it's a skill set, like walking up to people and starting a conversation and creating authentic connection. So that is is the strategy pillar of my mindful dating framework.
Speaker 2:And then we move into communication skills, like how do I communicate truthfully, how do I own my no and my yes and really be able to create those connections from a place of truth? And then, finally, I mean the last pillar is managing emotions and framing the whole experience as a growth and educational experience, because we can't avoid negative feelings, we can't avoid feeling rejected, feeling discouraged, negative feelings. We can't avoid feeling rejected, feeling discouraged, doubting ourselves, all of these emotions that we experience. We can't have a strategy that's going to eliminate those. We can't be inoculated, because if we try to inoculate ourselves against challenging emotions, we might just numb ourselves out to the positive ones too.
Speaker 2:But how do we frame them when they come up? Do we have the centeredness and the mindfulness to always bring it back to like oh, here is a process of self-discovery to who I am. And if I feel rejected, does it mean I then need to self-abandon a little more to make sure that the next person will choose me? Or can I frame that as okay, that was not my person and great, now I have more spaciousness to meet somebody else who might have a better connection with me. So just reframing those scripts as we go.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say your relationship with rejection is going to really affect strongly affect how you date. Right, like if rejection is super difficult for you and painful and you like take it as meaning something, like you take someone's rejection as meaning something about you, yeah, that's gonna make dating. I would say this is the one place I feel like I really excel, like, yeah, I don't like in the dating realm of just like we've gone on a date, maybe two, and I can tell it's not going forward. Like I don't, I don't ever read that as something about me and I think that's hard for people you know. Like how can rejection mean anything about you from someone who doesn't even know you? Maybe, whatever it is, the pheromones were off, or you know they're really into blondes and I'm not a blonde, or you know, or I've got too many tattoos like it could be anything, but I'd like to go through these pillars a little bit, if we can, because I think each one
Speaker 1:of them is important starting with. So a lot of people are on the apps and maybe we can talk. I'm choosing not to, but we can talk about that later. Can we start with sort of if someone's like I don't know how else I'm going to meet people I'm not really into clubs or you know what I mean this is going to be the easiest way for me to connect with people. What are some strategies they can put in place to keep updating mindful, which I think can be really hard, you know.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, I love that topic, I'm very passionate about it and I actually just recorded a class called Humanize Online Dating with Mindful Swiping, and that is a thorough explanation of my four pillars of mindful swiping, which I will go into now. But if people are interested in the full on 90 minute class it's only 27 bucks on my website they can go and get it. So the first pillar of mindful swiping that I always recommend to everyone is to ritualize your use of the apps, and that means don't just mindlessly go swipe while you're bored at the grocery store line or, you know, like before bed or just like when you feel angry or rejected, like. Use the apps in a very methodical way. I recommend 15 or 20 minutes a day. Maybe it can be on the same, you know, same time frame every day. It could be like okay, it's nine o'clock, I'm going to sit down and you're going to create a beautiful space for your use of the apps. You're going to sit down in a spot that feels comfortable to you and maybe you can light a candle and reconnect with your intentions. That is super important because if we're swiping impulsively, then the results might not be as mindful and aligned as we would like them to be, but the more we're stoked into our intentions when we're swiping, then the results will change. They will be better. So that's one Ritualize your use of the apps, which also includes like turning off as many notifications as possible, because that to me, just it's like social media. You know it pulls on your attention and it takes you away from yourself. It kind of creates an external locus of authority in your life and your brain instead of letting you focus on that internal authority, like you have to create your own GPS. So that's one.
Speaker 2:The ritual aspect Number two is creating an empowered dating profile. And going back to my example of my client who was self-abandoning by only focusing on one aspect of his personality that he thought would be pleasing. Creating an authentic profile is to actually highlight the contrast about you and the complexity and the nuance and showing up with more of that authentic, wholesome self, and you can imagine that you're creating a piece of art, like a canvas. You know you can use those apps as a way of really expressing your fullness. You know as much as possible Of course there's a limited amount of space and all of that but showing up in a way that feels really good and whole and authentic to you, and that can be a very empowering process in itself, the process of writing down like okay, what do I want to communicate about myself to the world? How do I want to show up? Is my profile something I can feel like full hearted about, rather than feeling like it's a diminished version of who I am and I'm showing up with fear?
Speaker 2:So that's pillar number two, and yeah, I love helping people with their dating profile. By the way, it's so fun to create that. It's like a piece of art, and the goal is self-expression. Number three is discernment. How do I swipe? What do I feel Like? How do I decide if I swipe left or swipe right on somebody? Like, are there old patterns at play when maybe like oh, there's a certain type that I just find so hot and irresistible but I know it's not the right person for me, but God damn, they're so hot I need to swipe right on them.
Speaker 1:Yeah, that would be a question of mine, like strategies for swiping.
Speaker 1:So my strategy when I was using the dating apps was you know, obviously the first thing I do is look at the photo and if I'm just like it's not someone I'm going to be physically attracted to which also, you know, it's problematic in the sense that if I'm meeting someone in the wild, maybe someone who I wouldn't typically be physically attracted to, I start talking to them, and that can change and it certainly has. In my, you know, younger life, I've ended up very much into people who I would have never swiped right on. But in app dating it's like kind of hard to you know, like it would require reading in depth every profile, figuring out if there might be a shred of something that would make them attractive to you. What are your thoughts on that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think it's good to slow down Because oftentimes you know like we are so hooked on to the dopamine aspect of swiping, like it really works like a slot machine. It's like, oh, you take your chances and if you get a match, it's like this reward. You know bing, bing, bing, you get that match, you know you're liked and you get that dopamine hit. So if you can train yourself to slow down, and especially with the framing of the ritual where you only swipe for 15-20 minutes a day, you're already kind of putting a container around your use of the apps. Then you can ask yourself does this person seem kind? What are they saying? What's between the lines of what they're saying? Is there anything about that profile, about that person from what they're expressing that I would resonate with, that I could resonate with.
Speaker 2:So, to be less impulsive, and I really like to recommend the book Deeper Dating by Ken Page, and he creates a distinction between attractions of inspiration versus attractions of deprivation.
Speaker 2:And the attractions of deprivation are those kind of wired attractions from our trauma, those kind of wired attractions from our trauma, from our sense of lack, whether it's like, you know, lack of self-worth, or feeling like there's a, you know, like deprivation or a scarcity of options out there, and we just get so intoxicated by those attractions of deprivation, we just get hooked. We're like, oh, I gotta have it, I gotta have this person, I've got to make it happen, and that can be very erotic as well. Versus attractions of inspiration, which are attractions where, okay, maybe it's not like a big fire, but we find this person inspiring. We find that they tend to bring up the best in us. They tend to show up with integrity and with kindness and with respect, and it's not like we can't imagine kissing them. I think it's important to have a level of physical attraction that's there. But to be able to distinguish between those two kinds of attractions, I think, is at the core of the idea of discernment.
Speaker 1:I do think there can be the scarcity mindset when it comes to dating and attraction and like how many, how many people are out there that are really available and you know, you see one that presents well on their profile and like I've got to get their attention because maybe they're especially when you get into. You know you see one that presents well on their profile and like I've got to get their attention because maybe they're especially when you get into. You know, I think late 30s and 40s and up. Yeah, you know, there is definitely this like feeling of limited time, limited resources out.
Speaker 2:Right, right, right right.
Speaker 1:And I know it's hard, but it's so important not to get into that scarcity mindset and just like saying yes when you don't mean yes because you don't think you have options so well times, and I would I would say another thing that I think happens, and and I would love your thoughts on this, is that we create, we turn a person into something they are not, Because it like when you're in that scarcity mindset, when you're in that like you're looking at someone and they align well enough, but maybe they aren't hitting all the marks, but then you in your mind kind of create the person you want them to be and you start holding them to that standard when that's not at all who they are.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, totally yeah. We tend to pedestalize people, we tend to romanticize people, we fill in the blanks in our mind. Sometimes we fill in the blanks in a positive way. We want them to be all that.
Speaker 2:Sometimes we fill in the blanks in a negative way too, like I think it's important to observe, like, well, if someone reminds me of another person who potentially broke my heart or was mean to me or I had a bad experience with, or just a characteristic that I judge, like let's say, oh, I really don't like nerds and you have that as a core identity. And then if you see something that looks a little nerdy, you're like, nope, this person, I know this type, I know they're going to be like ABC, and you just totally discard them because maybe their haircut reminded you of something or you know you filled in the blank. But then in a negative way, like, our minds do all kinds of things and that's why, like, mindful swiping also can be so powerful, because it's a big magnifier glass to like all the tricks our mind play and we get to just observe, like that's why slowing down is so important, like taking the time to observe what we're thinking and doing and feeling super rich and fascinating.
Speaker 1:Yeah, you learn a lot about yourself. That's so funny. That does resonate with me seeing a similar trait or hobby or something that someone's doing and I'm like, no fucking way, I'm not going to ever date someone who's into that again or that, as though those interests were the thing that made their behaviors what they were.
Speaker 1:And the behaviors and the way I was treated had nothing to do with the interest, but I've somehow decided that everybody who's into this thing or this thing is problematic. Right. For a long time I wouldn't date musicians, because I dated a lot when I was younger. I was like, oh, you play the guitar, forget it, you know, bass players out. They may still be out, but but no, then you know, in latest scenario would be whatever. Whatever interest it was, and that is something I've been thinking about lately because I have I have found myself doing that on meet someone I'm like and it's not fair.
Speaker 1:It's not even logical right.
Speaker 2:So, right, right, I mean, it would be a little bit like saying like, oh, I only want someone who has a master's degree and up, or I only want someone who is a certain height or who makes a certain amount of money.
Speaker 2:I mean, of course, you know it's important to have things like security, if that's really important to you. But sometimes we confuse the external marker with an actual quality that we need in a relationship, like, let's say, the advanced degree. You know, oh my gosh, like I want someone who went to a prestigious university because I want someone who's smart. Well, those two things are not necessarily the same thing. Like, maybe, yes, you want to be in a relationship with someone who's really intelligent, but I, as someone who has a PhD, I can attest to the fact that not everyone who has an advanced degree is going to be creative in their thinking or really open-minded or, you know, intelligent in many different ways. You know, like, intelligence is such a broad thing. So it's important, in that process of mindful dating, to get down to what is it that you actually value of mindful dating, to get down to what is it that you actually value, what is it that you actually want, rather than just staying on the surface of what you think that looks like externally.
Speaker 1:All right. So I do have things I know I want for the first time ever Like. It's very solid. So I'd love to use my, my um, where I'm at, as an example for people. So something that I know is like a non-negotiable is I want a relationship that feels secure, someone that can be a co-creator in a truly secure relationship. Need to know what they want and then in us choosing each other, for there to be this space where I can kind of relax, enjoy it and feel secure.
Speaker 1:Now I know that right now, attachment styles are all the rage, which can be problematic for some coaches and therapists because they're like everything is an attachment style and I know that it's not. But there are some similar behaviors that take place, obviously in the avoidant. There's the pulling back.
Speaker 1:In the disorganized attachment style there's the push pull, you know in the anxious, there's the clinging and I tend towards anxious, like I've been very open about that and I do a lot of work around it and strategies. But what I have said is I'm like there's no way, like if I'm not jumping back into an unhealed, disorganized relationship with a disorganized person which I've had so many relationship with disorganized I'm very confused by that because you get the pull which attracts my pull.
Speaker 1:And then, all of a sudden, I'm getting pushed away and then I'm getting pulled back and it's just torture for me. Um, or and avoidance, like the whole, like oh, if I'm going to, I want someone and I want a deep. I love the deep connection. I like, I want to get in there, you know. And, um, I want more of a monogamish style of a relationship Like I'm not interested in being.
Speaker 1:I realize I don't think poly is, I don't do the best in that but I do like a partner who's open to, like you know, some sexual adventures and play. So that's sort of the security piece is a big thing for me. That is like a. Really that is my biggest one. How do I date mindfully for that Right? Like yeah, I'm an avoidant but I'm going to therapy.
Speaker 2:And I'm like you know, how can I, if that's so important to me, how can I date mindfully for something like that? Well then, you know, I think you said a key word there. You said you wouldn't date an unhealed person. I'll put some bold fonts there disorganized person or, you know, like an avoidant person, and I think that you know it's good to really look at how is a person dealing with the cards that they've been dealt Like, how are they adjusting their behaviors accordingly? Because there's people who might have been assessed as avoidant but they know how to communicate about it. They know to say like, oh my gosh, you know like I can feel myself sometimes pulling back, but it's not about you and I will call you back in four hours, I will be in touch then.
Speaker 2:Or you know like they don't just disappear on you without any communication, like they might've been able to operate or function in a secure way in a relationship. So I think there's a difference between you know someone who has a secure attachment style just because they got lucky enough to have a good childhood with good parents and all of that, and someone who might not have that as a foundational wiring but they can operate or function in a secure way in their relationships and to me that's what's most important. You know, because there's even like secure people or people who had an okay childhood like they might not have the chops most important. You know, because there's even like secure people or people who had an okay childhood like they might not have the chops to function, you know, in a secure way. So you can probably discern what are.
Speaker 2:You know somebody's relationship skills from the first couple of dates and you can talk about that. You know, like okay, well, you say you're avoidant, you're going to therapy, but what does that mean to you? Like what? How do you deal with that? Can you know, like, how do you create intimacy even though you have that label?
Speaker 1:Right, I mean. So is that a conversation you would bring up on a date Like? Because I'm pretty good at communicating, I know which way I lean, I know the triggers, so when I feel them, I'm like and I'll. And the beauty of your attachment style is it doesn't just show up in relationships, it shows it like intimate relationships, it shows up in friendships. So you have a lot of opportunity to practice right, Especially with friends, and say she will experience that anxious attachment and even in friendships, and so you can build skills I can talk about my skills around my anxiousness. What do I do to self-soothe? What do I do when I'm like to discern if it's me or if it's something we need to discuss. Discern if it's me or if it's something we need to discuss. But is that like? Is that so? Is that something in the first date or two that you would open a discussion about? Like, hey, what's your attachment style? How did you destroy your last relationship?
Speaker 2:Let's only bring that on date number one, maybe two, you know, maybe two or three, like, sure, like and you don't have to bring it up in a like I'm interrogating you or I'm interviewing you kind of way. You know it can be like, oh wow, like I'm really into growth, like here's an insight that I had about myself. You know, like I have had this insight about you, know, like my own relationship to relational security. And you can see how they react. Are they connecting to what you're saying? Are they bringing up their own story? Like you can, you can view those first few dates as like, yeah, you're kind of establishing, are you? Do you have a common language? Like, are you able to resonate on those very important values that you bring to this dating journey? Do you feel seen, do you feel received when you bring that up? And it doesn't have to be like. This is going to be like a therapy session on day two.
Speaker 1:Let me get my notebook out and I would like all right, let's talk about this, so let me. Can you fill out this form, like? Are there forms I can bring to a date?
Speaker 2:no, I guess that wouldn't, I will always say. I will also say, though, that sometimes, just the interactions that you're having at the beginning, the planning of the date showing up at the beginning, the planning of the date showing up at the date, like, is this person showing up with a solid presence? Are they showing up when they say they would? Are they giving you that sense of like? Yeah, they're connected to themselves, they're reliable, they're principled. You know, like you can see so much about somebody from the first interactions and the planning of the dates and how they communicate on the date. It doesn't have to just be a conversation about attachment style, but you're also assessing each other's behaviors and creating discernment from that.
Speaker 1:All right, I love this. So we've talked about mindfully swiping. Do you match? Is there anything someone should think about as they start that first texting exchange? How do you stay mindful in the first sort of chat you know dating app, chat exchange? Are there things you should ask? Do you have tips for that Like a strategy?
Speaker 2:Well, I don't think that there are specific things that you should ask, but I think you should be mindful of your own communication in terms of are you self abandoning? Are you staying centered? Are you expressing yourself from your truth or are you self-abandoning? Are you staying centered? Are you expressing yourself from your truth, or are you falling into people pleasing or desperation, or is it you who's avoidant? You know, like, what are you observing about your own behavior and communication and what are you sensing from the other person? Because even if you're doing small talk which I don't think small talk is bad, you know, especially when you're first getting to know somebody and you're exchanging the first few messages and maybe you're picking up on something that they wrote on their profile and it's a little small talk conversation you can still start to assess like is this person present? Are they showing up in integrity or are they showing up with anxiety? Are they disappearing for a few days? Or you know, like you can already read a lot between the lines of a first initial exchange, a first initial exchange. So I think there's nothing really like specific that you should ask as a screening question, but just the process of getting to know them over text and then leading to potentially a video call or a date can tell you a lot, and I will also say I don't recommend texting back and forth for too long before you start escalating to a video call or a date.
Speaker 1:How long Do you have a thought on how much of that should happen?
Speaker 2:I think about a week. You know, if you're texting a little bit every day, then you know. After you know, like after a few days or a week, I think it's time to escalate and get off the app, get off the messaging.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think my opinion. I'm going to throw it in as, like someone who just wants to keep chatting and chatting, that's a red flag, like why aren't? We moving into the real world, you know.
Speaker 2:Right, right, I mean, I think a dating app is not really about dating. It's about making an introduction. It's an introduction app and it shouldn't be too much more than that. I love that.
Speaker 1:Now let's move to the first date. Yeah, what is a mindful approach, an intentional approach to a first date?
Speaker 2:So definitely the planning of the date can be mindful, like just being able to have some back and forth about what you might want to do. I typically recommend doing something pretty low key, you know like a coffee or a drink or maybe a walk in the neighborhood, something where you don't plan out a whole dinner or a whole. You know like multi hour experience, because you might feel trapped and maybe if you don't resonate in the first few minutes, like you don't want to find yourself. You know at a dinner and you already know you don't want to be there by the time the appetizer comes. You know like you. I think it's better to plan something really simple and also low cost so that there isn't, you know, issues around money and who pays from the first date, and I just really recommend bringing your authentic self.
Speaker 2:It's the same principle across the different stages of dating.
Speaker 2:You know like creating your profile, messaging and then showing up on a whether this person is going to be the one or someone that you just discard because they're not the one and you know, fuck him.
Speaker 2:But showing up with curiosity like, oh, who is this person and what is, or might be, the intelligence of that connection.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of people that I went on a first date with and it did not pan out as a relationship or a romantic relationship and it panned out as a friendship, like I'm still in touch with a few people like that that I've met on a dating app and that I'm not dating. So just being attuned and curious about the potential intelligence of that connection allowed me to have really great friends in my life. But then of course, I also have relationships where you know my own husband I met on a dating app. So being attuned to the intelligence of that connection did lead to a relationship, but it was not obvious right off the bat either. You know, we went on a first date and I wasn't sure that we wanted to date and it took a little while to get to know each other. But you know, and the first date, I knew that I was going to be open to meeting him again. So being able to be present to that gray not necessarily trying to resolve it into a yes to everything or no nothing is important.
Speaker 1:Right. I think also being okay and exploring maybe the I'm not sure yet connections is a good idea, just simply because, depending on your trauma, sometimes that fiery, sparky thing that happens right off the bat could be for reasons that aren't great.
Speaker 2:And you know being curious about.
Speaker 1:Okay, I felt this incredible connection, this excitement. What is that about? Is the same as, like sometimes, a safe person might not give you the sparks right off the bat because they're not holding you in that anxious space, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. That is exactly actually what happened to me and my husband, like I wasn't sure that it was. You know that the spark was big enough at the beginning because it wasn't one of those like intense attractions of deprivation, in the words of Ken Page. It was more of this, like slow burn, and I had to stay present with it, you know, in order to kind of let it unfold to what it ultimately became.
Speaker 1:We talked about swiping strategy, so then we move on to communication.
Speaker 2:Yes. So communication is really about finding our own truth and being able to communicate from that place. So, when a lot of that has to do with discerning our own yes from our own no and a lot of us, especially women, but also men are trained to say yes all the time. We're trained to think like I have a romantic opportunity and someone else wants something with me or from me, I have to say yes because otherwise they're not going to like me and I'm going to lose this boost of attention or validation.
Speaker 2:It can be really hard to actually like say no when we mean no, even to simple things like a hug or, you know, a long phone call. We just want it to end but we can't, you know, get off the phone because the other person wants to keep talking. Like training us to actually like say what we want and what we don't want is the foundation of a really healthy dating life and relationship life, because if we don't say no and we mean no, then we're bound to feel trapped. You know like I have a client actually who has a really hard time saying no to men. So right now we're having her off online dating because it's just too much, you know, like too much attention and too many requests, and too many requests from men that make her feel like she can't say no. So she's, you know she's being driven crazy by the amount of stimulation there.
Speaker 1:Oh, I bet they can be relentless.
Speaker 2:Yes, exactly. So I think until she learns to say no more easily and being able to kind of overcome that conditioning of I can't say no to men having a slower, haste dating life is more appropriate.
Speaker 1:Right yeah, it is hard to communicate from your authentic self. Dating life is more appropriate. Weren't expecting that goes against everything you're looking for, but you're already so invested, right that? It's hard to say, well, that's that. That doesn't work right.
Speaker 2:Yeah, right, right, like. A good example of that is let's say, somebody else wants to have sex on the first date and you really like them and you are attracted to them, but you don't want to have sex on the first date, you don't feel ready for it, you don't, you'd feel like that's too fast. There can be an impulse of just doing it and saying yes because you don't want to lose them, you don't want to lose their attention, you don't want to disappoint them. But then if you do it and you're not feeling great about it, then you might resent them or resent yourself. And if they reject you after that, then you might feel like there's really something wrong with you and you gave them your body, so to speak, and you know, you kind of went against your own will and you're left with nothing and that can be super painful.
Speaker 1:Right, you're self-abandoned, and then they left, yeah.
Speaker 2:Right, right, exactly. So that's a really important thing to be able to say no to. If you don't want it, you know, to just say like hey, I really like you, I'm attracted to you, but I don't feel ready. Let's you know, like, are you okay with you know, like, going on a few more dates, like you know, like no to this, but you know, here's what I want. Are you a yes to that too? Or are we really wanting two different things? To be able to articulate that and to be okay with. Let's say you do want different things, and that's a conclusion and it comes from clarity, then that's good. That and it comes from clarity, then that's good. That's a successful dating life If you can have an honest conversation with somebody else and whether or not you're going to keep traveling together and going on more dates, or whether your paths are coming apart and it's not meant to be a long term relationship or connection to be a long-term relationship or connection.
Speaker 1:Neither of those things can be successful in my book. How in this conversation, can we help people feel, or begin to feel, okay with things not working out? I feel like so often what happens is that after even just a few dates, people have decided this is it right, and so that's where the self-abandoning starts, right. So then they start like saying they want this thing, I didn't, but you know, if I do it, you know it's a small compromise. It's a small compromise. It's a small thing to give up to keep the relationship because everything else is so good, whereas, like you just said, that might be a good indicator that this actually isn't the person for you to continue dating. But it takes being okay with it going opposite directions. Right, how does someone get okay with that?
Speaker 2:Well, first of all, you have to be able to drink from your own source and be okay with not having a relationship, just like you voiced earlier. You said that you know you've gotten really comfortable being single and I think that's a really good place to date from, because you already, you know, started to comfortable being single and I think that's a really good place to date from, because you already, you know, started to. I mean, you're already compensating for the loneliness of not being in a relationship with. You know you're drinking from your own cup. You don't need a relationship, but you would like one.
Speaker 2:So, whatever it takes for people to get to that point of like I don't need a relationship to feel okay with myself or about myself, and that can take a while, that can take a lot of self-care, self-love, self-affirmation, self-validation, and also have community.
Speaker 2:I think you know like we might not need a romantic relationship to feel okay, but we all need connection.
Speaker 2:We all need to have friends and people who love us and that we love. So investing in that can be really great as a way to not feel so desperate when we feel, you know, in our dating life. So cultivating our individual cup and our community cup can be really good and then feeling okay with things not working out also can connect to a sense of trust that we can develop. You know like trusting our life and we get into the spiritual realm there too. Like can we trust that there is benevolence and coherence in the universe, that if this relationship didn't work out, you know like trusting that, trusting the other person's no also I think it's a matter of respect. You know like trusting that if they rejected us or if something in us was not comfortable and we ended up saying no to them, just respecting that and trusting that and people listening, a good like kind of go bag, for they're going to be done listening to this podcast and they're going to.
Speaker 1:Some of them are going to get on the apps and start swiping intentionally. Mindfully, folks, 15 minutes, I love that. Limit it um or be go to um you know some activity and be open to meeting people. What's a little little go bag of advice tools they can use as they embark on their dating life that will set them up for as much success as possible.
Speaker 2:Okay. So yeah, to kind of package it all up, really start with being clear about what you want, what you don't want, what you bring to the relationship, what are your deal breakers and your must-haves, and then create a dating strategy that feels aligned with your goals and with who you are. So it doesn't mean that it's all going to feel good all the time, but things that you can do that bring value to your life anyways. You know, even in online dating like to really like, package the whole experience as a growth experience and as an educational experience, trusting your life and being able to really own your yes and your no. So the last thing is also to have a support system, whether it's a group of friends who can mirror things for you, having a therapist or a coach who can keep you on track with your intentions, having a sort of accountability system so that you don't fall into the same old traps again and that you stay with yourself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no more self-betraying guys, no more self-abandoning. And I love how we really this all started with, like having a good relationship with yourself. And if you don't have a good relationship with yourself, like go get help, get therapy. I mean, trust me, I've been there, I'm saying this from a place of nothing feels better than having a good relationship with yourself. Yes, and once you have a good relationship with yourself, you'll feel it when you start to lose it.
Speaker 2:Right, right. And you're not going to want to be, you're not going to want to be with someone who diminishes that.
Speaker 1:Yeah, yeah, thank you. This is all great advice and definitely something that I can start. I think I'm going to write. I think I'm going to write my strategy down.
Speaker 2:Yay, I love that, yeah Putting language on things is so powerful.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I think strategy, have it in place and make sure I'm adhering to it, and I think for me and, as I think, a lot of the listeners, it's going to like making sure there's a strategy, strategy in place that keeps me from my, my, you know, pattern, which is self abandoning to make someone else comfortable.
Speaker 2:Right.
Speaker 1:Compromising? I'm not really compromising, I'm just walking towards their direction of what they want. You know absolutely.
Speaker 2:People pleaser.
Speaker 1:So yeah, thank you, I feel like this is going to be really helpful. Can you tell, first of all tell my listeners where they can find out more about you, also where they can download. You have sort of a guide, a little class for dating before dating, or even if you guys are already dating, take a class. There's a class that's next to nothing. That could save you extreme heartache.
Speaker 2:Listen to me.
Speaker 1:It's worth the money right.
Speaker 2:Yes, yes, I actually have two classes. One is the Six Pillars of Mindful Dating and that is a 90-minute class. It's $35 on my website $35 on my website. It's really the overview of my framework that I discussed today, with some real life examples and Q&A and interaction. It's really, really lovely. It's a lovely way to get started and get organized in your mind about dating and what do you want to focus on. And then I have a second class called humanize online dating with mindful swiping. And then I get much deeper into how do you deal with dating apps Like what do you watch out for and how do you create a profile that feels like you, that feels empowering? How do you swipe? How do you decide to swipe left or right? Again, it's that really deep dive into mindful swiping and that's only $27. And then people who are interested in working with me more personally I offer coaching. It's really great because I can coach people anywhere on Zoom and you can book a free 30-minute exploratory session with me, also on my website, which is marietouincom.
Speaker 1:And we will be getting all of those links to you. I really think having someone to support you and coach you if you're new to this or if you, you know, have had traumatizing experiences in the past, is worthwhile. Definitely, taking like these courses is worthwhile. We're dealing with hearts here and humans, right. Also, I would argue that creating a strategy, gaining knowledge, will also keep you safer, especially if you're a woman. Look, it is not necessarily the safest world out there. When you are on the dating apps, there are people that could be dangerous. So going into it with a strategy, being mindful about who you decide to go out to, is adding another layer of safety for you. I felt like we should point that out. So, um, thank you so much for joining me today and giving me, as well as my listeners, um, this important advice. Um, so I already feel better prepared for, you know, whatever's going to happen when I start really diving into dating I figure in the next year or so.
Speaker 2:So I'm excited for you and yeah, I will report back, yeah.
Speaker 1:So thank you, and to my listeners out there, good luck out there, mindfully swiping, and I will see you in the locker room. Cheers, bye, ring loop.