Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast By Talk Sex with Annette
The NPR of raunchy women’s sex talk. You know, the kind of conversations that take place during a girl's night out or behind closed doors after a couple of cocktails. Think fun, honest, and feminist with the goal of fighting the patriarchy one orgasm at a time.
Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast By Talk Sex with Annette
Get Off on Jealousy: The Secret to Spicing Up Your Relationship
In this episode of Locker Room Talk & Shots, I dive into the often misunderstood yet powerful emotion of jealousy in relationships with guest Dr. Joli Hamilton, a psychologist and expert in relationships and jealousy. Together, we explore how jealousy can be transformed from a relationship challenge into a source of arousal, intimacy, and connection. Dr. Hamilton shares insights on embracing jealousy, using it to deepen trust, and even incorporating it into sexy and kinky dynamics that amplify desire. Whether you're curious about navigating non-monogamy or looking for ways to turn jealousy into a tool for passion, this conversation offers actionable advice and fascinating perspectives on getting off on jealousy.
MORE
You can find my spicy site here. https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/
My spicy OF handle is @talksexwithannette
My free spicy handle is @annettetalkssex
Subscribe to my e-newsletter: https://she-explores-life.ck.page/e9760c390c
Ask a question, Leave a Comment: https://www.speakpipe.c
My substack: https://talksexwithannette.substack.com/
Check out my Diaries on OF. Enjoy exclusive access to intimacy video how-tos, guided self-pleasure meditations, and more!
https://talksexwithannette.com/talk-sex-with-me/
Use code EXPLORES15 for 15% off all Womanizer Products at Womanizer.com.
Experience the Pheromone Advantage at 15% off with my code LRT15
Use code LRT15 at Eyeoflove.com
And you'll get 15% off pheromone powered perfumes, colognes, and more.
To find out more or book a session with me visit:
https://talksexwithannette.com/home/sex-relationship-and-intimacy-coaching/
Email: annette@talksexwithannette.com
Watch on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/@annettebenedetti
Connect with us
We are on all the socials:
- TikTok: @ LockerRoomTalkPodcast
- LRT's Insta: @Lockerroomtalkandshots
- Annette's Insta: @BeingBenedetti
- SEL Inst: @SheExplores_Life
- LRT's FB: @LockerRoomTalkandShots
- SEL FB: @ SheExploresLife
- Annette's YouTube: Annette Benedetti
Check Out More Sexy Content:
She Explores Life Website: sheexploreslife.com
Cheers!
Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's locker Talk and Shots topic is getting off on jealousy, the secret to spicing up non-monogamy. One of the first comments I hear from monogamous folks when I bring up non-monogamy is I can never do that because I'd be too jealous. What if I told you that in some non-monogamous relationships, jealousy is the secret spice, the sauce to having an extra passionate relationship? Skeptical, that's all right, because I have an expert here today who is going to talk us through the topic and explain to us exactly why that's true and why your relationship with jealousy in your relationship, whether it's monogamous or not, could be changed to be something more positive.
Speaker 1:But before we dive in, in an effort to fight censorship and provide the information you want and deserve, I'm now live on OnlyFans. My handle there is TalkSexWithAnnette. In addition to sharing my personal sexual adventures, erotic interviews, audio guided self-pleasure meditations, masturbation meditations and erotic story time, my spicy site is now home to my non-spicy sex how-to videos that were removed from the tube. I'm also sharing exclusive how-to demonstrations that you won't find anywhere else. That's right. I'm going to be demonstrating some of those how-tos for you there For just $6 a month. You'll get full access to all this content while supporting the show. That's right. You're keeping the lights on in the locker room. Plus, I'll be answering your questions and offering personalized intimacy advice there. My handle is at TalkSex with Annette, so come join me there. Not ready to subscribe or to get that spicy with me? I understand. You can still watch my how-to videos on my free spicy page and it is at Annette Talks Sex. You can also head over to my sub stack, which is Talk Sex with Annette, and you're going to find them there. So there's a lot of places to find all of the things I'm offering, and I will, of course, put the links below so you guys can find them easily. But let's get back to the topic at hand.
Speaker 1:My guest today is Dr Jolie Hamilton. She is a relationship coach for couples who color outside the lines and founder of the Year of Opening. She is a research psychologist, tedx speaker, bestselling author and certified sex educator. Jolie also co-hosts the Playing With Fire podcast with her anchor partner, ken. The Playing With Fire podcast with her anchor partner, ken Jolie's been featured in the New York Times, vogue, cosmo and NPR. She spent the past two decades studying and reimagining what love can be if we open our imaginations to the possibility. I love that. Jolie helps people create non-monogamous partnerships that are custom built for their authentic selves. No more shrinking, pretending or hiding required. I love the sound of that. Sholi, will you take a moment to introduce yourself to my listeners?
Speaker 2:Well, thank you so much for having me, annette. I'm psyched to be here because I do love talking about jealousy. I guess something that's not in my bio that people often find a little surprising is I also have seven children, which, you know, it takes a little effort as well, but a lot of times people expect, you know, non-monogamous people to be totally out there. I am the picture of a soccer mom's soccer mom, and I still have quite the spicy life myself and I love, love, having raised my kids in a house where it's completely okay to talk about pleasure, sexuality, orientation, all the things with clarity and age appropriate values. So just something else I'll throw in there.
Speaker 1:I love that. I love the sexy mom stuff. People think that just because we have kids, suddenly we're not sexy anymore. When I tell people I have three kids, you should see the shock on their face. I'm like how do you think we get children into the world? This is how we bang, preferably. We have fun doing it. That's right. That's what we're all about here. That's the idea.
Speaker 1:So, folks, just two moms talking about banging and jealousy and non-monogamy. But I want you guys to stay to the end in all seriousness, because this podcast is going to help you redefine your relationship with jealousy. So by the end of it, regardless of the style of relationship you're in, you are going to have a different perspective and you're going to know how to work with that feeling. Because I know that, regardless of what kind of relationship I've been in I've been a non-monogamous and monogamous and all sorts of things Jealousy is a really common feeling to have and usually it's uncomfortable and not fun and it can be really toxic and harmful to relationships. But it doesn't have to be. It does not have to be, and you're going to find out all about that during this interview. So I may or may not be having a coffee at three in the afternoon, but let's raise it.
Speaker 1:Live dangerously, Annette.
Speaker 2:Do you have wine?
Speaker 1:over there.
Speaker 2:I wish I did. I have kombucha, I'm playing it. So, gentle, I have to teach tonight. There was kombucha and our coffee.
Speaker 1:Moms, business women, Moms, businesswomen Cheers. Let's talk about sex, jealousy and relationships. Can you just define jealousy in the context of non-monogamy and how it differs from jealousy in monogamous relationships?
Speaker 2:Yeah, great place to start off. So first off, let's just define jealousy. Jealousy is a feeling of a threat, right, it is when we detect that there is some kind of interrupting force possible in our valued relationship. So we can spot jealousy when we see a triangle. If I'm the jealous one, there's three points on the triangle Me, the jealous one, my beloved other, whoever it is that I value, whether that's romantic or friendship, but we're largely talking romantic here and then the perceived interrupter, right, the third point on the triangle is whoever it is that I either think is going to or already has interrupted my valued relationship bond. And remember that perceived interrupter does not have to be a real person. I don't have to be able to actually point to them and say, hey, it's them. We can also just imagine an interrupter up, which happens all the time.
Speaker 2:But it's really important to me that we define jealousy because so many of us conflate it with envy. Right, envy is about longing to be what someone is or have what they have. It only takes two people. Jealousy takes the third right and the third invites in a lot of energy. And the reason I started there is because in non-monogamy and that what you said at the opening. A lot of monogamous folks when they hear about non-monogamy they're like, oh, I could never, because I would be so jealous and that is in fact what I imagined years and years ago. I would be so jealous and that is in fact what I imagined years and years ago. And I am Guess what Spoiler. I am really jealous, but it's not the end of the world. In fact I find it to be quite an accessory to my non-monogamy. We'll get into that. But in non-monogamous relationships people are in, they're opening the door to the third all the time. The whole idea of there being other people relating to your beloveds like that's the idea.
Speaker 2:In monogamy we tend to think that we are protected from jealousy. In non-monogamy we have to face it head on. So that's the major difference, the understanding of what its role is Now realistically in my research. So I've been researching jealousy professionally. I am a depth psychologist and I do qualitative studies on jealousy in both non-monogamous and monogamous individuals. Realistically we feel jealousy just about the same. It's not that there's a huge difference. The meaning we make out of it and whether it's okay for jealousy to be present, that tends to be quite different. Non-monogamous people have, by and large not all of them, by and large made some space for like okay, I'm going to have to deal with jealousy. Whereas monogamous people may have thought that jealousy is an inherent indicator that something is wrong, bad, hugely problematic, and they often feel like they have to hide the fact that jealousy is even present, there's a lot of shame tied up with it. So we got to really get in and talk about this, because all of us deserve to transform our relationship with jealousy.
Speaker 1:I love that you say that there is a lot of shame in monogamous relationships around jealousy and sometimes like in the dating world back when I'm single but I am not really dating, but when I was dating there are so many people who would be like, yeah, and I can't handle any jealousy. If you know, I don't want to be with jealous people. If people get jealous that's like I'm out and I'm just like how do you so? Then automatically the thought is I've got to hide If I ever get jealous. It also felt like to me oh, they know they're going to take actions in a relationship that are going to lead to jealousy and they don't want to have to deal with the jealousy that results from their actions. Right, don't want to have to deal with the jealousy that results from their actions, right, and so how would you deal with that Now? So how, we know that happens in monogamous relationships. So what is the difference between that in a monogamous relationship than jealousy in a non-monogamous relationship? That is not only allowed but turns into a turn on.
Speaker 2:Let's just say first, there are plenty of people who are non-monogamous, who actually aren't feeling comfortable admitting their jealousy either right, because there's also a trope in the non-monogamous community that, like the cool kids don't get jealous, right, or the whole idea that jealousy is somehow an uninvolved emotion. And then if I'm feeling jealous, somehow I haven't transcended, I haven't done my work, I haven't blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
Speaker 1:Can I add in on that too? I I'm going to. This is a little all right, this is a little judgy of me, guys, but I'm going to tell you, when I hear a non-monogamous person say and I've heard plenty like I just don't get jealous, my thought is you're probably an asshole. Like instantly. I'm like you are definitely the asshole in all the relationships. I mean, I'm like if you never have gotten jealous, if you just really never get jealous, that's my little red flag. I have a feeling there's some stuff that goes along with that.
Speaker 2:Well, it is a red flag for me too. Not that they're the asshole, necessarily, because actually let me tell you a great story about my anchor partner but some people have a really high tolerance for jealousy and what I believe they mean is that they have not experienced jealousy that caused them to behave out of alignment with their values. Yet. And the yet is where the red flag lies for me, because whenever somebody says to me I don't get jealous, I'm like you're not dead, just hang on. We don't know what's going to happen. That's like saying I've never gotten, just hang on Like we don't know what's going to happen. That's like saying I've never gotten angry or I've never gotten sad.
Speaker 2:What an odd thing to be proud of. You have not experienced the full range of human emotion. Bummer, I'm kind of bummed for you. But also what we really mean when we get right down to brass tacks in this culture at least, when we say I don't feel jealous, what we mean is hopefully, I don't get reactive and harm people. I've never beaten someone up because I was jealous, or I've never thrown a hissy fit and scratched someone's car because I was jealous.
Speaker 2:That's not the sum total of what jealousy is. Jealousy is any time I am feeling a threat to my valued relationship because of an intruder, because the other possibility is that you've never experienced anyone interfering or interrupting, and that could happen in any relationship structure. Maybe you just literally haven't been exposed to it yet Great. But you don't know what's coming down the line. Any of us could be exposed to jealousy at any point, and if we have had a deeper conversation about what jealousy is and what to do with it when it shows up and we don't put it into this pile of things that like, oh, this is just beneath me, then we stand a good chance of working through jealousy productively. Whenever we malign an emotion, I'm super suspicious.
Speaker 1:Me too. I'm glad we're on the same page with that. So in a non-monogamous relationship, when the jealousy comes up, what is the thing that causes it to go in the direction of a turn-on versus in the direction of something that becomes destructive to the self, the person feeling it or the relationship?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so some people non-monogamous or monogamous does not matter are going to experience jealousy as arousing and some people aren't. And many people the vast majority of people, I think given the right context, might find jealousy arousing. What is that context? The key is in the context. If I feel safe and secure in the connection, if the bond actually feels really safe, if I feel that I can talk about my jealousy, I can bring it up with my partner, I can feel held in it, if my community accepts me talking about jealousy as a normal thing, these are all signs that jealousy could.
Speaker 2:If I want, I could just tweak it a tiny bit. I just turn the dial a little bit and all of a sudden, ooh, jealousy is about interruption, interruption is about a little. What's that oxygen Esther Perel always talks about? We want in our relationships, to bring up the heat right. If I can feel secure at the same time as feeling just a little bit of like a little bit of butterflies, that can be a super turn on.
Speaker 2:However, no matter what my relationship structure, if I feel truly unsafe, if I feel that I must hide my jealousy, if I feel, if I was never taught that jealousy is an okay thing, or if I can't even identify it and I'm just experiencing it like a tidal wave that's taking me out to sea, it's likely that I won't experience it as sexually arousing and instead I'm going to experience it as a massive fear response. It's going to instead really be about my attachment system just getting all torn to shreds. So the people who experience and I am one myself jealousy as arousing generally do so in the context of these really delicious, well-nurtured relationships with clear communication, clear understanding of boundaries, lots of well-negotiated, explicit expectations, and they can play with their jealousy. They can experience it in waves and know that it's okay if it's overwhelming, because there's also something fun and exciting to ride there.
Speaker 1:Right.
Speaker 1:So that makes sense to me, where, if you can experience jealousy in the setting or in a situation that is inherently secure and stable, then it can be arousing and exciting, loves you and is going nowhere, then you can play with the excitement the little bit of like.
Speaker 1:You know, I think our bodies don't always know the difference between you know fear or anxiety and excitement. It lights up the same way in our system and so, as you are, whether you're watching your partner go out on a date or you're inviting a third person into your bed and you're watching your partner go out on a date, or you're inviting a third person into your bed and you're watching your partner intimately with that person, you're experiencing fear and, at the same time, adrenaline rush, excitement, jealousy. But you also for me, because I definitely get off on jealousy like safe jealousy, which has been very, very hard for me to find in my life. But there is also something about knowing that's my person and that you know after you know I get to watch them do these things and you know they're here loving me. You know it's a very spicy experience, yummy it is, and you know.
Speaker 2:Beyond that, too, there's also some of us would categorize this as one of our kinks. I mean, we don't have all those porn genres for no reason, like, all of cucking would fall into this, right, some of us just get off on jealousy, even if it's threatening, and if that's you, let's bring that out of the shadows and talk about the fact that, yeah, yeah, being threatened being it's no different than being turned on by being submissive or by being spanked or anything else, if you've identified a certain flavor of like, how being jealous feels good for you, and you can then create scenarios where you get to play with that that feel good to your body. Even without a secure base home partner, right, I could still do that. I've played with this myself in partnerships that are casual. I do not feel like they are a secure, attachment-based partner to me, but I do feel that I am secure that I do not. I don't feel threatened in secure that I do not. I don't feel threatened in this relationship because I'm not counting on them, right, there's no missed expectations. So instead I can go into a total kink.
Speaker 2:Head space of this is this is for fun. We're playing with this. I can play with my own shadows, and at that point I'm relying on my self-security. I am good I got me. I'm still going to want to negotiate for good aftercare with my partners, right? We still want to have all of those things in place. But it is completely possible to play with jealousy, and so many people are. We often don't name it. We talk about it as if we're doing something else. The thing I hear most frequently from people is so I'm experiencing all this stuff, and they go on to just list all this stuff. They're like but I'm not jealous. Everything you just said is jealousy. We just need to make it okay to name jealousy for what it is, because on the other side of that is a ton of really playful juicy energy.
Speaker 1:I actually like to have a partner who gets a little jealous, I mean honestly.
Speaker 1:I mean, I think it can be sexy, it can heighten the passion. There is this balance that you, you know you are in where you're being jealous but you're keeping it in check because you know that you're secure with the other person and you're using it to feed your passion. But I want to go back because I think what you just spoke on was so important, because we came into this conversation talking about jealousy within non-monogamous relationships, jealousy within monogamous relationships, jealousy within monogamous relationships. But you just spoke to the fact that you can actually access this, the juiciness, this sensual nature of the excitement and arousal of jealousy as a single person moving through the world and having lover like me, I'm just taking lovers, man. That's what I'm doing over here and I love that you brought up, because on my path over the last year and handful of months, I've really worked on creating a secure relationship with myself and in doing that is completely transformed my relationship with jealousy.
Speaker 1:Because even if I am in a situation let's say, if I were ever at like a sex party or in a threesome or foursome where there were other beautiful women or whatever, whereas the old Annette would maybe get insecure and think, oh, people find them more attractive. You know what I mean. I have so much security with myself that I can experience sort of that like the thrill of like who's going to be attracted to who and who will, you know, be attracted to all of us? Like how is that going to be? And watching someone else be devoured by someone and feeling a little bit of that jealousy because maybe I was hoping to be in that position. But then it just turns me on and I find my space and I'm going to tell you what and I'm sure you can confirm this has made me much more attractive in other people's eyes, because the energy I give off is just like power it's a powerful place to be.
Speaker 2:Right. It's a place of being able to catch yourself, being able to meet your own needs and clear expectations. Other people can sense when your expectations are clear. So if you have a need from them but you've got yourself, then you can also articulate your needs. You can assert your needs and then the rest of the time, get yourself, you can catch yourself. Annette, you brought something up I think is important to add to the puzzle.
Speaker 2:We touched on the difference between jealousy and envy, that scenario you just outlined. In a sex party or in a foursome, say, that delicious feeling of tension of like, oh, I kind of wanted that. That's when envy shows up too, and I want to sort it out, because jealousy and envy can show up at the exact same moment. It's part of why we conflate the two terms. If I'm envious of what the other person's getting, this offers a new delicious path because I can be, instead of being jealous, like they are interrupting my valued love bond, but they are getting something I want, possibly even something that now is mutually exclusive, like I can't get it. Maybe it's a limited resource, maybe they only have, say, one mouth and it's going down on the other girl in the room and I literally cannot get someone to go down on me in this moment. Okay, that envy is super, super real. We shouldn't discount it. It's also incredibly motivating if we're feeling secure, if we're feeling like we can also adjust our expectations and play with that envy and be like, ooh, ooh, all that juice I'm feeling, that's my want.
Speaker 2:So many people tell me that they can't identify, they don't know what their wants and needs are. I'm like, yeah, because we're so used to pushing them down If they're not met before we've even identified them, we're like we just shove them down under the water. But as soon as envy pops up, know that like, oh, did you want it? Awesome, let's get it on your list, either for tonight or for another night. You just identified a want, and especially, I find, for people socialized. As women, we were taught to subjugate our wants for others. It's so powerful to have identified a want. Hang on to it. Envy can point you in the direction of what you want. I want you to latch onto that. For God's sakes, go put a note in your phone when you find it. Whatever you got to do to hang on to your wants.
Speaker 1:So in that situation, so that I have jealousy and envy figured out as a single person, and jealousy is much clearer in a relationship as a single woman. In that situation, if I let's say let's, and I'm I'm 100 percent making this scenario up, folks, you know I tell you the truth. But if there is, let's say, one person, I'm in a threesome, let's say I'm in a threesome scenario or even foursome, and there's one person that I'm attracted to and I'm hoping to like be wanted by them, then I want to be the one in their eyes, regardless of who their dick is in or their fingers are in or whatever. But yet I notice them spark with girl number two over here and that sets off a feeling and either I can get like butt hurt and feel like I'm not cute enough blah, blah, blah, blah or I can be like I'm gonna watch them fuck and that's gonna be hot right and I'm gonna like whatever help out if they'll let me, or you know, find someone else to like play with while watching them.
Speaker 1:Um, is that jealousy which where? Tell me the line. So it's both right.
Speaker 2:I was gonna say right, it's both and it's both.
Speaker 1:I want to be her, so envy is like I want to be her, like I want to be in her position. I want to be in that spot, but the jealousy is she's taking something that's specific to this person, right?
Speaker 2:so, even though you don't have, we wouldn't call that other, we wouldn't call the guy going down on her beloved, right, we wouldn't necessarily call him a beloved. We'd say, but maybe he is your connection right here, maybe he's the person you showed up to the party with or you just like, I don't know. But I am feeling this person and I can't seem to get their attention, and the more they don't turn their attention, it actually turns it up even more. Yeah, at that point they become not a beloved, but I would call them the valued other. I want to relate to them and that that helps me a lot when I'm attending a party or I'm at a casual situation. I can easily sense how. Let's just say, last summer I went to this really big event. There were about a hundred people, about 45 of them were men, and within the first five minutes of being in the room with all of them, I knew which ones were going to be my valued others. I could just feel it. It really didn't have anything much to do with their looks, we'd barely seen each other. There's just an energetic something there. Right, those become the people that all of a sudden you're just going to invest a little bit in, you're starting to invest your Eros E-R-O-S Eros in them, and just that creates the potential for that triangulation to happen.
Speaker 2:And in fact, at that particular event I remember watching it all over the room. I watched as people started to hone in. It's not like people were going there to hook up and find a partner. They were going there to fuck around with a lot of people, but and they were doing just that but they also had this tendency to have picked out two or three people who were theirs. There was some possessiveness that entered the chat a little, a little energy of like those are the people I want turning their attention to me. I don't want them turning their attention to anyone else. So this can all happen in almost any context. There were no relationships in that room, none. There weren't even really any friendships in that room. There was just a bunch of single people who enjoyed being together for a sexual event. But we can create connection in seconds, right, and we make these unconscious decisions and commitments to oh, I want this, and from there it's really easy to spin up both jealousy and envy in any circumstance that plays out.
Speaker 1:So I'm going to also share a story because I was thinking. Relatively recently, a friend and I girlfriend a friend that's a girl, but we also enjoy playing together were out and we met a guy and he and I, like literally from just the moment we came within each other's like orbit, there was. It was like literally from just the moment we came within each other's like orbit, there was. It was like it was like clear. We just were energetically aligned and as the night went on, we ended up all playing together and it was a very interesting situation Because in that situation I instantly felt like his partner, but also I've played with her and we are good friends, and so I actually got to play with the concept of jealousy that night Because I got to enjoy watching him with her. But there was this part of me that was like a little gremlin. It was like, ooh, he likes me.
Speaker 2:And I like him.
Speaker 1:And it was really interesting. But then I was like, oh, I was like, oh, I'm gonna like it's so safe for me because I knew that I would walk away from that and I would be fine with myself and and she and I are just like diehard friends. But I was very aware of what was happening and I don't often get to enjoy the juicy jealousy, uh sexy feeling, feeling because I'm single and because I'm really just in this very centered place with myself, like I can give a fuck less because I'm in a sweet spot in life right now. But it was really interesting to get to do that and that was definitely jealousy. It wasn't envy, because I liked where I was in relationship to him and in relationship to her, but when I watched him kind of get into things with her, I had that little, you know, that little spicy, like I could feel it. I could feel the kind of jealousy, but then it was also super arousing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that's a great example of how you can relate to your jealousy, because what I hear you doing there, annette, is something that most of us avoid, and we do it through no fault of our own. You know, jealousy is part of our lives from infancy on, and I have yet to ever meet a person who was taught how to negotiate and navigate their jealousy well, like nobody's. Parents are sitting them down and saying, okay, you're three years old and what I see is a lot of jealousy, and here's how we deal with that. Nobody's doing that. So we don't know what to do with jealousy.
Speaker 2:But you were experiencing jealousy in a way that lets you actively take responsibility, for it is your emotion, it is your set of sensations happening in your body. It is your responsibility. What happens with jealousy? Most of the time when jealousy shows up, we point our fingers at the other person and we're like okay, you change your behavior because I'm feeling jealous, and sometimes that is legitimately part of what needs to happen, because your jealousy is also an indicator that your trust may be violated, that you are being betrayed, that a violation of an agreement is happening. Those things are real, but then it's still your jealousy. You have to take responsibility for your actions, right.
Speaker 2:So frequently I hear people say well, I mean, I'm jealous, they need to change what they're doing. And there's no responsibility taken for what do I do with the feeling? And this is also why 74% of domestic violence cases list jealousy somewhere in their causal notes. And that's terrifying and fixable. And that's terrifying and fixable, right? If we started talking about jealousy as hey, every time jealousy shows up, just like every time anger shows up, it's yours to address your actions. That's the baseline you have to. Just because I get angry doesn't mean I get to murder someone. But up until the 80s, we were still allowing jealousy to be used as a murder defense. Just think about that. We didn't allow anger.
Speaker 2:Yes, yeah, Not in all states Texas and Utah up through the 80s, it's, I mean Texas and Utah, but you know. But seriously, but it's, it's wild to me. And yet we still do, I mean in the court of public opinion. And yet we still do. I mean in the court of public opinion. Most people still have this knee jerk response to when jealousy happens no-transcript. And this is what gets us into the situation where we have massive domestic violence repercussions that could be addressed if we took responsibility for what jealousy is.
Speaker 2:So when you're feeling that, when you're playing with that in the erotic space, you are leveling up your ability to deal with jealousy when it comes up in a time where you don't want it, you don't like it, because you understand that your jealousy is yours. It had nothing to do with your girlfriend, it had nothing to do with this valued other, it's yours. You were having a response and you got to make out of it whatever you wanted. You could have even in that time. I mean, you could take that all the way to orgasm.
Speaker 2:I have a lot of great stories about taking jealousy all the way to orgasm. But you could also take it to a point of wow, I'm feeling shame, sadness. I spiral out in self-loathing. I could take it to a place of really feeling into my anger, if you're willing to take responsibility for those other feelings that it's bringing up. And that's a good thing, right? When we relate to our jealousy, it's like, wow, it's going to come back in a punch. What am I going to do when it shows up? We are so much more empowered, so much more.
Speaker 1:I want to hear a story of taking jealousy all the way to orgasm.
Speaker 2:Can we just have one?
Speaker 1:of those just for fun. Absolutely. I want the story about jealousy being taken to orgasm.
Speaker 2:I have a lot of them, but I'm going to okay, let me tell you this one. So my experience at this point I can do this just for fun and I have suggested this with other partners and I've watched people play with this and it is really fun. I'm going to take you back to the first time. It happened, because I didn't know to play with my jealousy orgasmically. At first I did understand that there was heat to my jealousy, but my anchor partner and husband was dating someone who lit him up from the inside. And there is something that comes up in non-monogamy where you're like, oh, we've been at this for years. I've been like nine years in. I was like I got this, I'm fine. So this really blindsided me. It really did. I was also already researching jealousy when this happened. And what happened was I, as he came home from a particular date and he had this look on his face. There was something about the look on his face that, just like my insides boiled, I felt boiling. I felt electrical tingles up my neck. I was either going to fight someone or fuck someone. Something had to happen. I did not want to fight, but I started to. I started to go into a fight response. And this was a beautiful moment because my partner at the time knew me well enough to ask me if perhaps I was fighting because I was fiercely jealous, since I was already researching jealousy. I was like, oh fuck, you're right, god damn it. I was really mad.
Speaker 2:We played with this over the course of the next several hours, several hours where, instead of moving away from the story which is most people's response like okay, I don't want details, I need to go cool off Instead, we decided to walk right into the fire of it. He had already negotiated to be able to share details with me about this evening that he'd spent with me, about this evening that he'd spent, and so we just went in. He started up telling me the details. We negotiated for the fact that I had a safe word I understood, and basically I had him torture me with it, like slowly dripping the details out as I masturbated. It was. It was, I would say, earth-shaking, but that doesn't quite. I practically broke the bed. It was so mind-blowing because not only was I experiencing my jealousy, which was coming up in these fierce, fiery rage waves, while also pleasuring myself, but also my partner was holding this tension of both telling me the story that he knew was causing me this intense pain, and I could see him. I could see that he had like tears in his eyes because he also didn't like he didn't want to take me to a place that I didn't want to go, and he was staying the course with me. So I felt so tended and cared for. He just stayed with me and told me the story. And as he's telling his story and I'm feeling it, I finally felt the eruption of the orgasm and it was unlike any other orgasm I've ever had and I've had a lot of orgasms. It was so different because this one came with this anger, this hot, white, brilliant heat and acceptance of myself and the position I'd put myself in. I had brought this on myself. There was a little girl version of me in there who was feeling all the shame, all the tenderness, who was feeling abused and used, and instead we all came together, all those parts of me, and we just fucked it out. It was so powerful.
Speaker 1:I love this story for the fact that you talk about how the orgasm itself was healing and cleansing. My listeners my longtime listeners know that I talk about how of the most powerful energy that is housed within our physical and energetic selves, right, and if you learn how to harness it and use it, especially with a partner, how wonderful that you had a partner you could do that with. It's rare to find a partner that can align with you in that way. I do most of that work on my own partner that can align with you in that way. I do most of that work on my own, but that would be for me sort of a hashtag goals sex goals is to have find a partner that I felt that I could have that experience with.
Speaker 1:So another question I have, which is a sometimes our jealousy is truly a warning sign. It's saying this person is mistreating you, this person isn't doing what they're supposed to. How do you know at what point to stop just being like this is my stuff to deal with. I need to deal with it. This is the feeling inside of me. It's me and to be like maybe this person is a problem, maybe what they're doing to me is wrong or however they're being in this relationship is wrong.
Speaker 2:Yeah Well, first off, I want to look for patterns. Right, Anybody can have an experience of having jealousy awakened in them and not know is this my partner or is this me? So first off, I want to look for patterns. If I'm repeatedly feeling jealous, either I've got an inner jealousy issue or there's a problem in the relationship. So just notice if you're seeing this more than once, in other words, if jealousy pops up once, please don't freak out. That happens.
Speaker 2:But rational jealousy is real right. I don't actually want you to get rid of jealousy. When people tell me they don't feel jealous, I'm like bummer, you have no threat detection system for when your relationship agreements are being violated. I'm not thrilled for you. I'm actually kind of worried for you and in fact my anchor partner would describe and he's told this story before on our podcast about how his jealousy setting his tolerance is actually too high. He was so able to tolerate jealousy that in his first marriage, which was open, he was continually having agreements violated and he just kept coming back to like well, you know, I agreed, I agreed to an open relationship, so whatever, I'm just gonna have to deal with it. He didn't even recognize that as jealousy because, well, he didn't see himself as having any say in it.
Speaker 2:So the first thing I want to know from people is do you actually know what the expectations are in this relationship? Have you bought into the idea that just because you're open, you have to be down for everything, because that's bullshit? Have you been told how relationships have to go and that jealousy in itself is always your problem to deal with and your partner is not supposed to? Oh God, tell me. Your partner has not said you know, it's not my job to meet your needs. You have to meet your needs because hi, why else do we partner with people? So these are all red flags for me. When someone is unwilling to make agreements with me, that's because they don't want to have any accountability. When someone is unable to be explicit and clear, they don't yet know what their needs wants and boundaries are Again big red flags. But if you have some sense of agreements, not just implicit ones, let's get really clear here. We all I, I have implicit expectations. We're not going to get rid of those. Those exist.
Speaker 2:But I'm talking about what are your explicit agreements, whether you're open or you're monogamous, what are your expectations of what's inbounds, what's out of bounds? Have you actually said them out loud? Better yet, have you written some of them down to make sure that they actually make sense to you? I don't mean to bludgeon your partner with, but, like, have you ever looked at the sentence? Have you ever bullet pointed Like this is what I think I'm agreeing to in this relationship.
Speaker 2:If you can't do that and you're having a bunch of jealousy, it's probably because you're feeling really off balance and you don't know what you can expect.
Speaker 2:So of course, jealousy is going to come up and feel really crazy making. If you are, over and over again, finding yourself caught in jealousy and you don't know what the expectations are, so your partner can just keep saying I didn't know. Or when they want a super crisp list of exactly what they can do, and then every single weekend, they're finding a way to somehow work around the boundaries and like they're just nudging in. These are signs that you are not in a healthy relationship. The jealousy is an indicator that this relationship is not one that you should be counting on for secure attachment, and that brings us to a whole new arena, which is is that what this relationship is for? Did your partner sign on for that or are they just leading you on? Do you just think, because they've been around a long time, that they're supposed to provide you secure attachment? Because if they're not, then they're not. There's a lot to dig into here, but jealousy work can bring us closer to our partners.
Speaker 1:And to ourselves and to ourselves. It sounds like to me, like you are going to learn a lot about yourself if you're willing to pay attention. I feel like jealousy is a really good learning tool If you stop looking at those feelings as being bad and use them to ask yourself why am I feeling this way? Is it some work I haven't done with myself On the self-love spectrum? Where am I right? Where am I with myself? But then also, how do I let people treat me? What do I want from a relationship? What do I do when my body gives me this feeling and I want to talk to my partner? Do I feel too ashamed? Do I want to be an ashamed person? Can I be a direct with them? Do I let people walk all over me? If so, what work can I do there? Also, what kind of relationships do I need?
Speaker 1:I have never, until I mean really, I guess now this last five years, from my last relationship, which went for approximately three years, to now, since I've been single the last year and handful of months. One thing that I've really learned on this journey is how much I need if I'm going to be in a relationship, whether you know that's a primary relationship in my life, whether it's a monogamous relationship or someone who's going to be, you know, a big part of my life and more of an anchor partner, I guess is what I would call it. I need to feel secure. I need a secure attachment with them. I need their commitment to me to being. I want to make you feel secure, like I want to be part of, like making you feel secure. Not that they can make me feel anything, but you know I want to create.
Speaker 1:I want to create a kind of relationship where you feel secure and where you feel safe. When you're not feeling secure, discussing it with me and figuring out how we can fix it together. I will never shame you for not feeling secure. Security for me is a huge thing, and if someone's not willing to give it to me, I am not willing to be in their orbit. It's just something that's I can't enjoy anything.
Speaker 2:You know your bottom line. You know your bottom line and know your bottom line, and at that. Nothing is more powerful and precious than knowing the requirements we have for someone to relate to us and to allow them to exit stage left if they're just not available for that. Sometimes people really want to be in relationship with us but they simply aren't available for what we need, and it is so uncomfortable to know what I need and to be standing there accepting it and being like, well, they're trying their best, yeah, but if it's not meeting your needs, your fundamental foundational needs and everybody's are different, not everybody.
Speaker 2:I have relationships that are not secure, attachment-based relationships. They're not supposed to be. I'm not looking for them to be, that's just fine, but I certainly I wouldn't want to live with them, I wouldn't want to share finances with them, I wouldn't want to co-parent my children with them, and there are also entire sexual fantasies that I wouldn't personally play out with those people. They're just, they're too close to my actual depths of my psyche. So those people get a different part of me, they get to see a slice of me, because maybe they are good.
Speaker 2:If I know what the relationship is for, maybe they're a good match for me in that way, and when I heard you say that you're just taking lovers, I was like, yeah, like know what you're for. If you can articulate that and other people can opt in, you can co-create something really luscious that isn't that home-based, like mono-oriented relationship that we tend to recreate, even in our non-monogamous relating. We can keep recreating that mono sort of bubble around every relationship. But you get to have casual relationships, you get to have one-offs. Bring back casual dating. I mean, where did that go?
Speaker 1:I think, interestingly, what I have done is I've created myself as a primary partner, right? So I mean, and even when it comes to sex, like I have a lot of sex with myself and the best sex I have is with myself and I like make love to myself and and so whenever anyone, I, I have sex with someone or I start to connect with them and take a lover, um, in the, my fear around what happens to those connections is pretty low, because I've got myself in the end and when something happens that knocks me off base, I sit in discussion with myself.
Speaker 2:Right, right. So if you can dialogue with your whole self, you're ahead of the game, way ahead of the game.
Speaker 1:Right, yeah, and that's maybe my superpower, but it also allows me to play with jealousy, then, with the people I am intimate with and feel safe, and feel safe, which eventually, I hope, will be transferable when and if I ever am in a partnership again, and who knows if that will happen, but should I so?
Speaker 1:I would ask you this because in my mind, as I'm listening to you and this is not my area of expertise, it would seem to me a great place to start practicing the skills to be able to handle jealousy within a relationship, regardless of if it's monogamous or non-monogamous, would be when you're single.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would say, when you're single and in the imaginal realm, those are my two go-tos. You don't need, because I'm not likely to be single anytime soon. I really like my anchor partner, darn it. I almost disgustingly just really enjoy him. But the imaginal realm right, and this opens up any relationship structure you find yourself in your imagination is yours. You can play with jealousy from that place and for some of us it's actually going to be the most powerful place we ever play with it. Because for some of us it's actually going to be the most powerful place we ever play with it. Because for some of us we actually have really loyal partners or we're single and we're like, actually I don't need anything. I have wants from other people, but I don't need anything. And so allowing yourself to experience the imaginal realm right. So I'm a depth psychologist. My PhD is in Jungian and archetypal psychology, so the word imaginal is very intentional here.
Speaker 2:Most people think about their imagination. Your imagination is a powerful place. The imaginal realm is. It's real. It is it's where you dream, like your dreams really happen. They are also not physically embodied, right? So let's stand in that space between real in my daytime, waking life and the dream world. Somewhere in there you can also just go to a space where you're like, wow, I'm going to really experience this. I'm going to allow myself to drop into this imaginal space. I'm going to use my imagination to be there and play with the interruption, to play with the terror of having someone interrupt me between me and something I need, someone I need. It's incredibly powerful to find yourself able to get off on it right, to tweak that into getting off or to find that, in fact, wow, when I'm there, I start inner resourcing. I can feel myself like pulling up the strong warrior parts of myself. I can feel myself relying on my wise inner wisdom. I can feel myself leaning into myself, playing that scenario out, and I really do think that during orgasm is an ideal place to go to this imaginal realm.
Speaker 2:I do a practice called orgasmic imagination and it's built off of active imagination from Jungian psychology, and we, during a self-pleasuring practice, we actually enter into this state of wow, wow. What if all of the things that I ever imagined, what if I let them just be a little bit more crystalline, a little bit more real, and I'm bringing pleasure to my body? Like you said earlier, we're harnessing that magic that is our orgasm and allowing ourselves to experience pleasure, even if something is, if we're told by the world it's bad, it's wrong, it's icky or, it's worse, dangerous. What if jealousy equals danger to the infant? Jealousy equals being cut off from your primary caregiver. So if I can imagine needing someone that much and being cut off from them, separated by a third, it's just there's a lot of electricity in there and not everybody's ready to work with that.
Speaker 1:But if you are, it's just got a lot of juice ready to work with that. But if you are, it's just got a lot of juice. There are some great exercises to do at home if you want to work with transferring jealousy from being a really negative thing to being a sexy thing. I'm going to ask you to wrap up this podcast with me with two more things. A, I want you to list off some dynamics maybe kinky dynamics in relationships where jealousy is used to spice things up. Like what kinds of dynamics? You've already mentioned one. I want to go back to that, but if we could list some of those off. And then I want to close this up with just your tips for how people can go home tonight and start working towards turning jealousy either current jealousy they're experiencing or future jealousy they may experience into some juicy, sexy stuff.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so let's talk about where jealousy can show up. There are so many dynamics where jealousy can show up. There are so many dynamics Depending on your relationship structure. It could be that almost anything, anyone, anywhere who interferes with your partner's attention. So if you're in a monogamous structure, any person who takes your partner's attention could wake up your jealousy right. It could be his golf buddies, it could be anyone.
Speaker 2:One of the places a dynamic I see happening more and more frequently is inventing a third out of thin air. Because they're clicking too many Instagram likes. They're clicking too many hearts, right, that's another one. Also, yeah, what are they watching? Are they on OnlyFans? Are they watching porn? Right, we can create a third out of these imaginal figures. They're real people. They're real humans, but they have no relationship. They have no way of interfering. But we can absolutely create this dynamic of super huge amounts of jealousy based on the third has no idea that they are doing this. It's completely not in their awareness. They're providing a service.
Speaker 2:We also see it happen in any negotiated power dynamic relationship. Power often plays with jealousy, right? So anytime we've got somebody in a dom-sub relationship daddy-little-girl dynamics, mommy-little-boy dynamics all of these jealousy is just right there, it's rife, it's just, it's so easy to pick it up. I haven't gotten to see Baby Girl yet, but I'm going to go watch it, specifically looking for jealousy right now.
Speaker 2:I also think that it's interesting to look in non-monogamous relationships, to look for the dynamic of the people who want to be cool with everything often are inviting jealousy in without realizing it right. If they're trying to make themselves just down with everything their partner wants, without knowing it, they're inviting jealousy really close to them and they may not have the capacity to manage it yet. And people who enjoy that sense of freshness of oh, my partner's turning their attention to someone else and it actually sparks something that's another really common one People who actually encourage. I find myself in that. All of us who find it just really hot for our partners to go out, all of us are playing with jealousy and that's a huge, that's a whole paraphilia all by itself being very, very interested, troilism, being very interested in either watching your partner fuck or just having them go out and fuck.
Speaker 1:And then the cuck dynamic, the cuck dynamic and the hot wifing dynamic right dynamic, the cook dynamic and the hot wifing dynamic right. I have not covered either of those here and they have been big requests for those of my listeners who have written in asking about that dynamic. I am going to get them covered. But this jealousy podcast, this episode here, is going to be your level one intro to that dynamic. So let's wrap this up with for my listeners going home tonight, if I I'm always assuming they're listening to it on the way home, but I know you guys like to wake up to my voice too. So if you are just waking up, what are some things they can start incorporating activities? Just maybe pop off three that they can start doing right now to work on jealousy and getting off on it.
Speaker 2:Everyone should do this one Start identifying the sensations of jealousy in your body. If you think you don't experience jealousy, this will be harder for you. But for all the rest of us normies who are just like, yeah, sometimes I feel jealous, pull up. Give yourself five minutes. Pull up the last infuriatingly jealousy-inducing scenario, let yourself really imagine into it and feel the sensations and actually name them. Write them down. What does jealousy feel like in your body? Because the sooner you can identify it, the easier it will be to work with jealousy. We usually don't identify it until we're way off down into our narratives and it's super, super shadowy. Let's identify the sensations first.
Speaker 2:The second thing we can do is clear up your relationship expectations. People, everyone like get clear, what is this relationship for? What are my expectations around fidelity? For what are my expectations around fidelity, around privacy, around transparency? What are the expectations? Let's lay our cards on the table and get clear, because when people say they're jealous but they also have no relationship clarity in their agreements, like what are we even jealous of? I don't even know right now. It's just a big old mess. I can't even tell whether this is rational jealousy or not, because you have no guide. We don't know. And if you're thinking to yourself well, I'm just monogamous, so I just have the regular rules. There is no such thing. Monogamy needs to have fidelity, clarity as well. Right, we need to get into the weeds and talk about what our expectations are around fidelity. Where's the line? And can I back my donkey right up to the line? Or do you expect me to stay 20 miles from the line?
Speaker 2:The third thing I would ask people to do is to really de-shame jealousy. Talk about it, it's normal. Start using the word the next time you can identify a triangle. Right, if there's a triangle in your imagination or in real life, just say it oh, I'm in jealousy. Or maybe you're the perceived interrupter and you're like oh, I think I'm in a jealousy triangle. I don't even mean to be in, but I think this person thinks I'm interrupting. Name jealousy and don't name it from a position of like, oh, I'm better than or I'm worse than, just oh, jealousy's here. So really destigmatization starts by just naming what it is, without any judgments about what it means. We don't know what it means yet. We would have to get much deeper into it. So just start by naming it. If you can't name it in your community. Name it in mine. Come to my Instagram, come find me. Let's talk about the fact that jealousy is perfectly normal, which is where we are now.
Speaker 1:I want you to tell my listeners where they can find you.
Speaker 2:Sure Well, you can find me on all the social platforms. I'm at Dr Jolie underscore Hamilton. That's D-R-J-O-L-I underscore Hamilton, like the musical. You can also get my jealousy resource if you just go to jealousyroadmapcom. That is a free 20-page guide that outlines the jealousy roadmap that came right out of my doctoral dissertation research and has been since researched even further. And if you're interested in opening up your relationship, you can go to openeasiercom. You'll find me there presenting you the five pillars of successful open relating.
Speaker 1:Thank you so much for joining us and, folks, if you are looking for a cheerleader sidekick in your sex and intimacy journey, I have my books open for my intimacy and sex coaching. You know, just go to uh talk sex with the netcom. Please consider joining me on my spicy pages or on my sub stack. I want a deeper relationship with you. I want to bring you the content you want and you need to have a more pleasure filled, sexually fulfilling life. So check me out. You guys know where I'm at, and thank you so much for joining me today. This was a wonderful conversation. It was exciting and I'm excited for my own journey, sexual journey with jealousy, because I know it is a turn on for me for sure. So until next time, listeners, I will see you in the locker room. Cheers.