Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast
Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast
Autism & Sex! How to Get Neurospicey In The Bedroom
Sex Educators Heather Florio and her Husband Tommy join me on this special episode to dive into how autism may affect people's intimate relationships when they or their partner are on the spectrum. Heather and Tommy share the intimate details of their experiences as a couple who met in high school and are still going hard in their 40s.
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Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's locker Talk and Shots topic is autism and sex unlocking intimacy on the spectrum. I promised my listeners this episode, I want to say about a month, month and a half ago, maybe two months, when my guest today joined me for an episode on ADHD, women and sex. During that episode if you have not listened to it, you need to go back and listen to it we talked about how more and more women are being diagnosed later in life with ADHD and autism and only now recognizing how it has affected their entire life, including their intimate and sex life. I am one of those people. I was diagnosed this year with moderate to severe ADHD and it has been revelatory for me in understanding everything about my life and especially about my intimate and sexual life, and I've been able to implement changes and improve my life vastly.
Speaker 1:But during that episode, my guest Heather, who is here today, and I promised to come back and talk about autism and sex, and today our conversation isn't just going to focus on women. It is going to focus on people of all genders and we'll explain a little bit why when we get into the podcast. But right now I'm going to let Heather Florio and her partner, tommy, who has joined us today, introduce themselves a little bit. And it's sort of a special treat that we changed up at the last moment. Her partner offered to join and really talk about sex and autism as a couple and share experiences as partners. So we're going to get a really wonderful, well-rounded view on this topic from people of two different genders and people who are in relationship with each other people of two different genders and people who are in relationship with each other. So, Heather and Tommy, will you just take a moment to introduce yourselves to my listeners before we kick?
Speaker 2:off our episode. Yeah, definitely, thank you for having us. So my name is Heather Florio. I am the CEO of Desert Harvest. We have been doing pelvic and sexual health products now for over 30 years and today, as you had mentioned, after we kind of chatted a little bit, we I asked my partner, tommy, if he would join in.
Speaker 2:We have been married now for over 25 years 25 years I'm losing count and you know we've been together since we were 19 years old and so really he has been a part of the formative part of my years of understanding myself sexually, understanding our growth and our growth together and then also getting my autism diagnosis. So having Tommy here together so that we can kind of support each other on this journey and actually we're actually working on being Tommy is getting sex educator certified so that we could start doing this more and more together on educating couples on their sexual journeys.
Speaker 1:And this is Tommy's first podcast. I have to like mention that because I'm like, oh, I'm going to be a couple's first. Think of that what you will, it feels good to me. Don't worry, I've been told I'm gentle and kind. Well, I'm glad you're here, tommy. So let me be clear on this you do not have autism, correct?
Speaker 3:I do not.
Speaker 1:Okay, but you have been with Heather through her diagnosis and then coming to understand what that means within your relationship and intimacy. This is perfect. Well, thank you, first of all, for stepping away from work to join us and listeners. I hope that you will.
Speaker 1:Whoever you are listening right now, whether you have autism or don't, or are dating someone who does or don't, I hope that you will take the time to really listen to this episode because sooner or later, I'm confident you will have someone in your life who does have autism, and this is going to help you learn how to communicate with them, be in relationship with them one way or the other and, especially, if you do end up being with someone intimately and having sex with them, it's going to make, it's going to give you the tools to have better sex with them, maybe explosively wonderful sex with them, and understand what they're experiencing as well. So stay to the end. We're going to cover this in depth, um, and I'm really excited about it. So thank you for joining us, tommy. Thank you, heather. Let's talk about autism and sex Cheers, cheers. So I just want to dive in right away. Can you just start with some of the ways that are going to be most obvious to people, in which people with autism experience or act differently during sex.
Speaker 2:I think one of the two biggest things to start with and point out is is that you know, autism is definitely a spectrum and so is your sexual experiences and it doesn't matter whether you're high functioning or low functioning. That determines this. But you can either be very hyper sexual or very hyposexual. But it's a little bit different than what you would think of in the sense of a person who is not neurodivergent in this sense, because with hyper it's more that they feel their sensory, it's sensory overload, um, and hypo is very much that they're not feeling, they're not, they're not necessarily having it might take extensive amounts of time to get to orgasm other things because they're not feeling your touch, they're not feeling that experience, and so it's harder to have formative sexual experiences when you're hypersexual.
Speaker 1:Right. So what you're saying is whether someone with autism is hypersexual or hyposexual depends on. Does it depend on whether they're high functioning or low functioning, or is it just depending on the kind of autism that they have?
Speaker 2:It is the kind of autism that they have, not necessarily their level of function within the spectrum, it is more in how they experience their autism. So in the case of the hypersexual, you know those that are very touch sensitive, do not like to be hugged, do not like to be touched and I'll let Tommy go into this a little bit about the formative years of our experience with this but being touched is, you know, very off limits. Those are going to be your hyper sexual people and that is because they experience touch in a completely sensory overload way than than a non neurodivergent person who does not have autism. The this is is this is sensory overload.
Speaker 1:So when they're hyper and the sensory overload is happening, they don't want to be touched, or like in sex. Or when they're touched in sex, it's like incredible.
Speaker 2:It is incredible. They just have to get past the barrier of being touched because it is an overload. It's an amazingly orgasmic experience, I would say.
Speaker 3:I think, to add to that, the thing is is is, when we first got together, she didn't understand what that touch was about. What I realized, I mean, she was more of a mechanic. In regard to sex, it was more mechanical, Whereas I'm a very, you know, touchy, feely, all around touchy type of guy. You know, uh, touch is kind of my love language type of thing. Um, but she didn't understand what that meant to be touched in that way.
Speaker 2:Um, she just it was do the you know do this, have the experience, get the orgasm, Wham bam. Thank you, ma'am. Move on versus having that connection, the touch, the affection. I didn't know what to do with that and it was very hard for me to have affectionate touch.
Speaker 3:Right, any of that stuff. It was stuff she had to learn that, wow, this is actually making me feel good Once she could get over that sensory overload.
Speaker 1:Right. So it sounds like, Tommy, what you're saying is. When it came to sex, it was like hop on, get to the orgasm and it's done so, whereas you wanted to have more of the drawn out sensual experience.
Speaker 3:Correct.
Speaker 1:Of exploring each other's body and being in that erotic place, right? What is Heather, as someone who has autism and it sounds like you're on this hyper end of things? What is it like? I'm a very erotic person, right? Like I have a very difficult time getting to orgasm, though that's improved drastically with a lot of practice. So I like to be in the erotic place and just play there. I like the emotional feel of it. What is that experience like for you, Having learned how it sounds? Like you have learned for your partner's sake, or maybe even your sake, how to be in the erotic place with the sensual touch.
Speaker 2:I think he's really had to. It's taken a long time, it's not anything that happened overnight, and, and I'd say, communication was the key between a lot of communication between both of us yeah, because, because he had to, I had to communicate what touch I was okay with, what touch was I was not okay with.
Speaker 2:We had to ease into certain certain touches, and and, and we had to learn I think I had to learn that you know the perfunctory getting to the orgasm and we're done, um kind of thing. But what if the extension of that pleasure? I had to be okay with that hypersensitivity. I had to almost lean into it in a sense, and and and be okay with it because it overwhelms you. And when you have an overwhelming sense like that, and especially as an autistic person, it's like tuck tail and run and and and and just like don't touch me, don't touch me.
Speaker 3:I'm the complete opposite person that just wants to be touched constantly. Yeah, I guess another way of saying sensory overload, I have that as well, but I, just I constantly want to be touched.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and so to have those opposite experiences, I think is really taken. You know, two opposite people has taken a lot of of communication of him getting me used to touch.
Speaker 1:So you were not diagnosed when the two of you got together, correct? At what point in your relationship did that diagnosis take place?
Speaker 2:Very, very much later. So we're currently 45 going on 46. I was dying. We've been together since we were 19 and I got diagnosed at 41.
Speaker 1:Like for me being more like you, tommy, I would feel rejected a lot, probably if the touch you know in connection with someone who you know didn't like that kind of touch or wasn't giving that to me. But what was that like for you and how do you think it affected your, your relationship? Obviously you have a successful marriage, right. I mean, 25 years is and you seem to still really like each other. You're still having sex with each other. So what was that journey like?
Speaker 3:Um it for me, um, it was difficult. Like, like you, it felt like a lot of rejection, um, but I also knew I didn't know that she was autistic. Obviously we didn't know that at all, but I also knew that was her. So I tried to adapt myself to that as well, even though feeling those issues, it's just, yeah, a lot of rejection is what you felt. And then I kind of buried that with knowing that this is just the type of person she is and for me, this is. You know, I'm in love with this person, so I'm not going to go anywhere.
Speaker 1:Oh, collective awe. Can we just stop and like say how sweet, especially coming from a cis man? I mean, I love cis men, but that was sweet. Thank you for sharing that. Go ahead.
Speaker 3:You're welcome, it's just, yeah, I don't know, I guess.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say that that it was he. He did an amazing job adapting to who I was, because it was against his nature, but his the touch that he needed was against my nature, and so it was. It's almost like slowly working, like imagine being across a field from each other and and figuring out how you could slowly work towards each other, and I think that that's a good analogy to our relationship and our sexual relationship, especially because we, we knew we loved each other, we knew we wanted to be together and we knew that this was right for us. We just any relationship, and especially when you first get together, is about figuring out how the puzzle pieces fit together. And and I think we, we just did that. And, and you know, we had kids very young. We're now kid free. Well, I mean, do you ever say you're kid?
Speaker 3:free.
Speaker 2:No, not really kid free. We have a little more freedom early on years and our, our sexual experiences were infrequent because we had young children when we were younger, in our twenties, where everybody is like you know, the roaring twenties, we didn't have that. Um, we had the child twenties and and so I think our, our real sex, sexual exploration, beyond just the perfunctory, really started to begin probably late twenties, early thirties, where we really started to navigate and focus on our relationship and each other, cause we had this whole other piece where they were grown, they were starting to be independent and we could focus on our sexual relationship together and I think that that's what really allowed us to be able to connect sexually and really, for me as a woman, understand my orgasm and understand that, that, the foreplay that he always wants to do, and I'm all like let's just get to it.
Speaker 2:I want to get and it's a benefit and it increases the, the experience, it increases the orgasm. I had to get past the, the overwhelming feelings, the hypersensitivity, the. You know, I I'm very, but then at the same time, like it's it's also I'm a little bit hypo, in the sense that once I began experiencing it and experiencing orgasm, how do you, you maximize that in a sense? And for people that are hypo, do you maximize that in a sense? And for people that are hypo, they're not going to feel as much. So then, in a complete opposite sense, I need, you know, we found out that I need much more clitoral simulation.
Speaker 3:Yeah, I mean the sex having. We both had plenty of sex drive. That was not an issue whatsoever. Not even I mean an issue whatsoever. We've always been extremely attracted to one another and sex was great. I don't have any complaints about it. It's just back then it was a lack of touching back or a lack of foreplay. And then, once she actually experienced what an orgasm was because we didn't know, we didn't learn ourselves until we'd already been married Years Probably 10 years before I was able to she she thought she was having an orgasm this entire time.
Speaker 1:And she wasn't.
Speaker 3:And she wasn't no, and of course I felt bad.
Speaker 1:So she was just over, she was just overstimulated. The whole time she was mistaking the overstimulation for orgasm how okay. So I have to ask the first time you had an orgasm a how do you do you remember it? And b like what was. Can you walk me through the experience? Oral sex.
Speaker 2:Yeah, that was the first time I ever orgasmed and it was. I didn't even know what was going on and you know, interestingly, that might be something that some an autistic person who is hypersensitive might be able to utilize to get over, because he's not touching the rest of my body necessarily, he's not overstimulating my. He's stimulating my erogenous drone strictly and and it allowed me to relax in a way I think that I've never was able to it was focused in one area, not all over her body.
Speaker 3:It wasn't too much for her to realize what was going on. Maybe was focused in one area, not all over her body. It wasn't too much for her to realize what was going on, maybe. Yeah, potentially, and once we opened that gate it was. I mean, it was great for her, for us, for everything, of course, and she was getting the pleasure she deserved. And I was getting what I deserved, and you know, as partners and couples, and I was getting what I deserved, and you know, as partners and couples.
Speaker 1:Mutual attachment. So can we? I want to rewind a little bit for listeners. What are some signs a partner who's not autistic at least as far as they know, could look for in a relationship that might indicate that the difficulties they're experiencing, or that their experience might be with someone who has autism.
Speaker 3:For me, the person that was with you know in that experience realized that you know when they don't want to be touched like she's talking about, there's probably some sort of something going on and there's tons of resources out there to look into. That helped me understand once we did realize what she had, how to communicate with that.
Speaker 1:Mm-hmm, yeah, what about? So that's from the point view of point as a partner. So lack of wanting to be touched. Is there anything outside of the sensations, the touch that shows up in relationship with someone with autism? I?
Speaker 3:mean there is uh, I'm trying to find the best way of explaining that Um.
Speaker 2:Well with like hyposexuality versus hypersexuality. Hyposexuality can really be in the sense that maybe they don't enjoy sex as much, they have no interest in sex, and even someone who's hypersexual it might be that the overstim case if they do get to orgasm, they might begin to seek riskier behaviors sexual behaviors as a result of being less sensitive to touch. But maybe they got to experience an orgasm and then they start exploring riskier behaviors to get that orgasm back, to have that, to feel, to feel. So you've got like two varying spectrums here. You've got the hypo where you're, you're, you know, reaching out, wanting, wanting, wanting, wanting, but maybe not being able to communicate it effectively, communicate what you want. Almost, in a sense, you know in it where we like it.
Speaker 2:We do sexual education for our youth oh wait, we don't very well or at all in some cases. And and when we don't do that, it creates almost we can create a sense of shame in a lot of cases and a lack of education and understanding. So for an autistic person, this shame where a lot of our shame, sexual shame, is built early on in our youth, where we took a course and went to go see, where this was a course about birth to nine years, where this is where a majority of people build their foundations of sex, even though from birth to nine years there is no thought about sex. There is no, they don't think about it in the sexual nature. This is an exploration of their bodies, understanding what feels good, what doesn't feel good. So take that birth to nine years and then you know they're in the bathtub touching themselves and and mommy or daddy says no, don't touch yourself there, and and this is the appropriate place where you can do that, or you should not have sex before marriage, or or these levels of shame that are created early on.
Speaker 2:For an autistic person, this can come even later, in the sense that that, because of the social awkwardness, not understanding the, the, the social aspects of of building a relationship, you know sex or things like that, and just coming out and saying and relationship, you know sex or things like that, and just coming out and saying and the, you know, let's have sex, babe, right here in the middle of this restaurant.
Speaker 2:You know, you know just just things of not thinking of, of you know maybe masturbating somewhere, not realizing where you should and shouldn't masturbate, things like that. So there's a lot of sexual shame that comes around for an autistic person just because they and even for me in my youth feeling that it was dirty or it was wrong. I came from a very abstinence-based, religious-focused um, you know, abstinence based, religious, focused, don't have sex before marriage kind of environment and so, as a result, I dealt with a lot of sexual shame and then when I began having sex in my teenage years it became a, you know, slut shaming and other things like that and I think that for autism, that can really impact their behaviors and their approaches to sex so that they can be very off by sex.
Speaker 1:So can we back up a little bit, because you just named a bunch of ways in which autism affects sexual behavior, sexual experience, the perception of intimacy and communicating within intimacy. Can we go over those things specifically Like how does autism affect how you communicate during intimacy or in relationship, and then we'll walk through some of these other things you just mentioned as well?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think you know. Again, it depends on where you lie on the spectrum. I'm considered high functioning, low functioning might have a different perspective, but as human nature it's our ideal to seek companionship, to seek pleasure, to seek and, and where other people might have normal experiences in, let's say, high school or other things like that, where you're hanging around with your girlfriends and they're telling their boy, you know, and they're talking about their sexual experiences and and and you really. I mean because our sexual education is so awful in the United States we really get our sexual education from our peers. An autistic person isn't necessarily going to gain that level of understanding that a typical person.
Speaker 3:I mean from my experience, obviously, with her it's just very awkward for her to be. Even communication during intimacy is very awkward Not being able, being autistic and not being able to read somebody's facial expressions or feelings, or reading what mood they're in, whatever it may be feelings, or or reading what mood they're in, whatever it may be. So we have to talk to each other a little more and ask these questions, or or flirt or or just touch, or different ways of of getting each other's attention and understanding how we're feeling.
Speaker 1:How does an autistic person flirt?
Speaker 3:person flirt. It took for a long time there wasn't. She didn't really flirt at all. Um, and then I think, over time, watching me, cause I flirt quite a bit, I'm a flirt in regard to my partner very much, so, um, she started picking up those, those same practices. The behaviors has a lot of autistic Do they mimic what you know, people without autism or ADHD or anybody that has these things. They mimic what other people are doing.
Speaker 2:So like grab his butt when I'm walking past.
Speaker 1:She learned? She learned how to flirt from men. She grabs your ass. Does she whistle at you too?
Speaker 3:She did, yeah, and of course you know, like most men, I have a weakness for that area, but it was difficult. She needs to give herself credit because it was quite difficult for her not even understanding her own emotions, let alone trying to figure out a partner's emotions, who is an emotional person or a physical person?
Speaker 1:So if she didn't know how to flirt because so my understanding is then someone with autism has a harder time picking up on social cues. Like I am the opposite of that, I think, because of the ADHD that I have in the level like I'm picking up all the social cues and it like overwhelms me that way because I'm reading everything in the room. It sounds like with autism it's almost the opposite, where it's a little bit more challenging to read those cues and then to give them when you want to give them. Is that correct?
Speaker 2:Yeah, from my experience, yeah, it's very much a learned behavior for me and I think that overt gestures, um, like you know saying little things or little touches, or you know initiating that flirt, I can't do that. So that's probably why I picked up on the more overt, like grabbing his butt, being like hey so how did you guys end up together?
Speaker 1:Did you have to do all the flirting, tommy?
Speaker 3:Did you, uh, did you have to like, make it happen, or when At first it was her, I was quite shy when I was younger.
Speaker 1:No.
Speaker 3:Very, very, very shy. Yeah, and it was.
Speaker 2:It was like um no Very very, very shy, yeah, and it was like he was we. Actually he was in the US military at the time. He was in the Army and I lived in the town where he was stationed and was visiting a friend from high school and that friend happened to be his roommate and you know, he was in the room. He walked away. I was all like, hey, he's cute To my girlfriend. That was with me and I'll never forget because, like all of us, you know young kids, we were 19. He had to have, like all of his buddies, go and be like. She thinks you're cute, Go back, do something, you know. And he comes in and is like I heard you want to hook up.
Speaker 3:I didn't say it like that. I was sweating bullets, I was. I was like this woman's way out of my league, there's no way. So I was just. That came out of just being very nervous to speak to her in general.
Speaker 1:And your opener was. I hear you want to hook up.
Speaker 3:Oh, it was horrible. I was like, and after I said it I was like oh my God, this woman is not giving me the time of day.
Speaker 1:Actually, probably why it worked was because it was so direct. I mean, if she can't read social cues on the subtle level, just walking up and saying, saying the thing might be the reason why you're married today.
Speaker 3:It could very well be. It was direct and straightforward. And she's like, well, okay, let's figure it out.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'm like. Here's my phone number. Call me sometime.
Speaker 3:Yeah, and that was it. So. So, so, with people who have, autism.
Speaker 1:it may be like a, if you like them, who have autism. It may be like A, if you like them. It may be best to just be direct, to like gather the courage and be direct so they know exactly what you're, that you're interested. Otherwise someone with autism may not even know. So for people out there especially men, but I guess also women, men men often hear them just saying like they don't know you know how to approach women. They're afraid to X, y and Z? Um, or they just don't feel like women are interested. Maybe it's that the woman you're into has autism and you just go for it and sometimes we get rejected and and you gotta just deal with it. What's?
Speaker 1:the worst, they're going to say no, no, right, exactly no, just accept.
Speaker 3:No, I found being direct is so much better with her than anything else.
Speaker 2:We don't understand social cute, social niceties. It's very much. And I I'm this way, even as a boss I'm like I'm very direct, I'm very much like I don't understand. Like working around something I'm all like here, here's what needs to be done, here's how to do it. Like this, I don't understand putting the social niceties in it to make that happen.
Speaker 1:And so that probably happens in intimacy and relationship and in the bedroom as well. Right, like I'm very good at like sensing if what I'm saying is upsetting someone or making them feel awkward, and so I adjust to all of that which is exhausting. It sounds like you just are like, yeah, I've worked with people like you and I'm always wondering like how does someone get to be that direct've worked with people like you and I'm always wondering like how does someone get to be that direct? I'd like I would love to embody that and feel comfortable doing that someday.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean it's gotta be nice, and I bet you get a lot of shit done too.
Speaker 3:A lot. She gets a lot of shit done yeah.
Speaker 1:It takes a lot of time and effort to make everybody comfortable around you, trust me. It takes a lot of time and effort to make everybody comfortable around you, trust me. But on the receiving end of that, tommy, do you ever get your feelings hurt? Does the directness? I'm a sensitive person. I might get a little bit like oh, ow, or because, and maybe I should say before her diagnosis, did you get your feelings hurt or did it feel?
Speaker 3:a little rough. Her diagnosis explained a lot and made life a lot more understanding and easier to deal with. Before that it was a lot of hurt and we would talk about that. She didn't quite understand it because that's not what her intent was at all, and it took me time to realize that. Of course I'm going to have my emotions and my feelings and then I have to realize, hey, this is not what my partner's meaning to do. She's not meaning to do this. I think that's also what's helped us be together for a long time, even before this diagnosis, because I realized at a young age with somewhat decent communication that that's not what she means.
Speaker 1:How did you realize that prior to her diagnosis?
Speaker 3:It was very confusing at first, because a lot of times she would to me it was mixed messages, but even to her it's not she would give me a hug, say she loves me, give me a kiss, tell me how much I meant to her, all this stuff. But then here comes this direct punch to the gut, and so for a while I was like does she, does she not? But then we, I, I, I would ask her, I'd ask a lot of questions to get clarification.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I'd say one thing if nothing else that an autistic person is can be is honest.
Speaker 3:Very, very, very, very honest.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so if you ask, we're going to answer.
Speaker 3:And if, if you don't want to hear, if that answer potentially has something to make you upset, then don't ask a person like her, because they're just going to come out and tell you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I love that you had.
Speaker 1:Somehow, as a young man, you had a lot of communication skill, a lot.
Speaker 1:Just to be straightforward, in our culture, in a patriarchal society, men generally aren't given the skills to do the kind of communication you did, to experience what you did, did and not and I'm not saying I'm sure that there's a whole story to what, what really kind of happened there, but to not, you know, let your, your ego, uh, supersede your understanding of what you're trying to figure out and understand what your partner meant and then making it through, fortunately, to the, to the diagnosis, when you could have some relief and go oh yeah, it was right, it wasn't me, she really does love me.
Speaker 1:Now we can work past that. That takes a lot of effort and a lot of commitment and also people of all genders don't have those skills. But I think, particularly in the way men are conditioned in our society, they lack a lot of those skills. So, listeners, this is why we all people of all genders, we want to build the skills. If you care about somebody, if you want someone, if you want to be in relationship, to take time and do the work and and have the conversations, have conversations with your partner.
Speaker 3:It sounds like you guys were constantly having conversations about it and to understand that the relationship, if you are truly in a, in a, in a relationship you want to be in, it's not just about you, it's just not, it's not going to ever be and you're going to have to give and take right. You're not going to get everything you want, your partner's not going to get everything they want, but you try to do the best you can.
Speaker 2:It's work. Right, it's work.
Speaker 3:Yeah, but it's a beneficial work if it's the right place to be.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I mean, even just talking to you two over here and knowing you've been together 25 years and you've gone through this diagnosis and some of the problems that you dealt with with her having autism. They're the same problems many of us have in any relationship, right Not understanding each other, learning each other In any relationship, right Not understanding each other, learning each other. And I can see that, even going through all of that, that 25 years later in your mid 40s, that you know you two clearly care deeply for each other. Just watching your and listeners. Again, if you're listening, go to my YouTube channel at TalkSexWithAnette and you can see them. Youtube channel at Talk Sex with Annette and you can see them. You know they look directly into each other's eyes and there is like an intimacy that's clearly present that oftentimes, when I'm talking to couples, you just don't see anymore. So you're doing something right. I love that. I love that. It's wonderful, all right. So now we know that the social cues aren't there.
Speaker 1:People with autism struggle this when something is rubbing you wrong they may not be able to read, when the way they're speaking to you is like killing the mood instead of building the mood Right which I can look back on my intimate life and recall many times where I'm just like you got to be kidding me, like you know, you got to be kidding me, like you know. So those are some really important things to note. If you're being intimate with someone and you see those things going on, hey, there could be something more and maybe you need to directly communicate with them. I'm wondering about this, like I often think, when I'm having sex with someone you know, and maybe they're going down on me, or maybe they're touching me, or maybe we're doing something, and I'm kind of trying to move my body because their hand, their mouth or whatever is in the wrong place, or I'm trying to give them physical signs that whatever they're doing isn't working for me, or it is, and my partner will like do the opposite of what. You know.
Speaker 1:I'm tilting my hip. Like come on, you're, you're sucking on a labia. I'm tilting my hip, come on, you're sucking on a labia. Get over to the clit. And they don't. You know what I'm talking about. Come on. And you don't want to have to say like, hey, that's my labia, not my clit, like what are you doing? That's my thigh. We need to really. Do you think that with someone who has autism and may not read those physical.
Speaker 3:you know the subtle things we want to do to keep the mood, but not verbally say you know to the left, to the left. We've been quite open in regard to communication about sex in general. Like, I mean, pleasure is an amazing medicine. With the right person, I mean it's just amazing and I like to please her and I'll, or and I'm, and I wanted her to please me, obviously. So we communicate and I think it's very difficult for most men because they take it to heart If their partner tells them they may be doing something wrong. Well, I want to know, because I want her to orgasm.
Speaker 2:I want her to know because, because I want her to organize, I want her to enjoy it, I want her to enjoy me, I want to enjoy her so I'd like open up my lips and be like this is the spot, not there, and then he'll be like okay, and it's just really being open and not like well, I'm getting used to it, because at first I I took it to heart, to being a man, but I had to realize okay, that's, the point of this is to please one another and to make each other feel good.
Speaker 2:So the clitoral stimulation in train. So we kind of introduced was probably somewhere in our 30s we introduced a bullet into our relationship in which during sexual intercourse I will utilize a bullet because, you know, clitoral stimulation is key for me and I need that and that is very what I've learned from him is that and from other people that I've spoken with that for men that's something very hard for them to get over in a lot of cases and I don't know it did me too.
Speaker 3:I mean, honestly, like the first few months we used we, we use it. I took a ding, like I think most guys would, but I also knew different too that this is what she needed. I just had to get my own emotions past that part.
Speaker 1:Right, we, we all we all need that. Let's just be honest so many of us if we could grab the bullet and use it during sex without upsetting her Well then you turn it into fun.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and we found like the biggest thing is is?
Speaker 3:we found like she likes when I use it on her more than she uses it on herself.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and the most, one of the most perfect positions to utilize it and it's good for women for pelvic use is to put two pillows under your abdomen and almost like doggy style. But then what? The pillows support you and support your pelvic floor and at the same time you can reach your hand under, get clitoral stimulation while also being stimulated.
Speaker 1:Oh, I know, I know, oh yeah.
Speaker 3:I know the position.
Speaker 2:I know the position. Yeah, it's one of the ones I always throw out there, especially if you have pelvic pain, other things like that, because it reduces the strain off of the pelvic floor and, at the same time, is allowing you to get that clitoral stimulation you need. And same thing can be stimulating your G spot, your A spot, a variety of different points.
Speaker 3:Well, what helped, you know, what was nice about her enjoying foreplay now is the fact that you know you can play and do all kinds of different stuff before you have to. You get to that position Because I mean, let's face it, everybody, if you do the same thing over and over, everybody going to get bored, especially if you're sexual people. It's just, and we're both very sexual, but we also know that's the best position for that, for her to work. So we do all kinds of other stuff and then you know we end there it's the for sure position that will bring about the desired ending.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I love that. So someone with autism also might then be a very direct communicator during sex, and to not personalize may just be like you know what are you doing. That's the wrong hole.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, everybody should communicate their pleasure, whether you're autistic or not, and not accept something that isn't working for you or subpar. And I think that a healthy sexual relationship is always about communicating communicating your wants and your needs, and it might be in the moment, definitely in some cases. But understanding, especially from an autistic perspective, for me is I don't mean anything by it, I'm just telling you what I want, what I need, what I need to meet my pleasure, and I would love for you to tell me the exact same thing which Tommy here does, to tell me the exact same thing which Tommy here does. And that's exactly what I would love from a partner always is open communication and saying what you need, because ultimately, I want you to experience your pleasure, tommy, in the same way that I experienced my pleasure, and we want to create mutual pleasure together.
Speaker 3:And for the person without the autism it can be difficult to communicate at first, especially like she brought up about societal norms in regard to talking about sex or even asking questions about sex. Someone with autism it's obviously easier to be direct, but some people that don't have it it's difficult, depending on the way you were brought up. So I had to get over that barrier that, the sexual of a person I am, I still thought it was bad to talk or ask those kind of questions to my partner.
Speaker 1:Many of my clients come to me and they're usually in relationship and I am shocked at the number of people that really don't communicate about sex at all with their longtime oftentimes married partner, right their wife or their husband Like conversations about sex don't happen. Conversations about sex don't happen, I think, more than as being myself like and having always talked a lot about sex, I I re and always been really open with my partners about sex. That has not ever been an issue for me and I don't think I realized how many people are super uncomfortable talking about sex, even with someone who they've been intimate with for years and years and years. But also, as someone without autism, I can say this sometimes I have a really hard time during sex telling someone when I'm not getting what I need or what they're doing isn't working for me, because, especially because I've had more, I'm bi pansexual.
Speaker 1:I have partners of all genders, but especially with men, even though they'll say I want you to tell me what feels good when during sex, I correct them sometimes even though they say they want to know like, and if you know, then I have to like make them feel better afterwards because they'll be like. You didn't like it. You said I did something wrong, like you asked me to tell you, and, and as a woman, I'm like I'd rather just bite the bullet and not get what I want. So I don't have to spend three hours making my partner feel better because I was like, hey, could you like again move to the left, or could you touch me here? Stop touching me that way, right?
Speaker 2:So I don't know, and I think that almost probably comes from just being a woman in general, because, I mean, as women were, we're taught by society to not rock the boat and a lot of cases.
Speaker 3:So I I'm so glad she told me. I know I had to get over my. I would hope. I know it's hard. I don't know Cause I'm not a woman, but I can imagine it's extremely hard for women to speak in certain areas because of what society has done over the past two, three hundred thousands of years to women in general. I think the way men are going to get over it is more women do tell them if it hurts their feelings or not. They just we need to learn to get over it. They're not. It's not an attack. It's the better your relationship with your partner.
Speaker 1:Do you think, heather, it's easier for you to be direct and correct him than maybe me, who will like just suffer in silence because you're autistic? I kind of wonder.
Speaker 2:Yes, I do Um I. I have no shame in my game. Like I, I am.
Speaker 3:She'll say what she's thinking.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and, and sometimes I'll have sexual conversations. It doesn't matter, I could be in the middle of a church. I could be like and I'll just start to oh girl, you know, let's, let's talk about this. You're in menopause. Let's talk about how you can have better, more enjoyable sex. And and I'll go down the rabbit hole and he'll be like honey, honey. We're in the middle of a church.
Speaker 1:That was the other part that I heard you mention, that something that might be a cue that someone has autism or is on the spectrum is not recognizing. Quote the time and place. I certainly don't give a shit about time and place but the appropriate time and place, that might be a thing that comes up.
Speaker 3:That's a huge pickup, yeah, I mean we like to call it. She has no filter type of thing, and time and place doesn't really play a part in her world. So she relies on me a lot to just even nudge her or something, and when I do that she understands. I'm not trying to tell her what to do, it's just. It would probably work better in this situation if you approached it a little differently.
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think that I think that you know it goes back to that sexual shame conversation and and and that spectrum conversation. When you're a lower functioning, you might not. It might go even further than that. It might be seen as being sexually deviant or sexual behaviors that are not societally acceptable, other things like that. For instance and I'll use this as an example of a child, where the behavior you're trying to say, hey, this is time and place. But imagine an adult doing it.
Speaker 2:I had a friend and her daughter was five and she would not stop masturbating. She would. She would be doing it in the living room, she would be, you know, everywhere because she enjoyed the pleasure, and so you know. She asked me what I thought and it's like don't create sexual shame around it. I said don't tell her that what she's doing is wrong, but instead show her time and place and where it is safe yes, private time. This is something you do on yourself. So you might see this in an adult, autistic person that might be lower functioning at the same time, because they're, just like I'm, experiencing pleasure. This logically makes sense to me. I'm enjoying my pleasure. I understand why, why I can't do it, why I'm sitting here in this park, or why I'm like you know and and and. So what society might view as sexually deviant behaviors, which, in you know, some cases might be, but in some cases just might be that the person's autistic and that they don't understand time and place.
Speaker 1:How, though, did you navigate? I mean, at first, tommy, you didn't know she was autistic, so she would just say things at the wrong quote, inappropriate time and place. Was there ever maybe a rub between you guys? Because I know that I've been in a relationship where I'm not great at time and place either, and I've had a partner like try to shut me up and it sets me off, like it sets me off when people do that we had a conversation about it. Again, you get back to the conversation, tommy, so reasonable.
Speaker 3:I mean, that's what we did. I mean I could see what she was doing, and then she was not getting reactions like she wanted, or people would look at her a wrong way and she'd come be like what's? You know what's the deal? Well, let me recommend this. You know, just um, just a recommendation that people without autism see, and we didn't know that.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I think that there's probably definitely especially discussions about it early on, but I'd think that there's probably definitely, especially discussions about it early on. But I'd say that there were definitely times where there was probably clashes, where, like at first the sexual experience was tarnished or was not as good because you know I did say something at the wrong time, or I'm all like, like I'd like, now let's just have sex, or or this behavior you know, or I don't want to do this, or or things that might per se kill the mood.
Speaker 3:Um, there were definitely those moments for sure. Yeah, and there were definitely where I would think she's just not into me because of my lack of understanding and it would just ruin the whole environment.
Speaker 1:So is it more on Tommy to work on setting the mood or navigating? How do you actually? Before we move into this, because I think what we need to do to sum up this podcast is to really give our listeners tools from both perspectives I'm going to give Tommy a chance to say here are some things you can work on as someone who is non-autistic but partnered with an autistic person. And I'm going to give you a moment to talk to people with autism and say, hey, here are ways you can like identify what's going on with you and then work these skills to be better in relationship. But before we do that, are autistic people really good at being doms? I have to ask, like, like, I'm just watching you. I'm not saying you're a dom, heather, I don't know what you're like in bed, but I'm like it's the complete opposite in the bedroom.
Speaker 2:Complete opposite.
Speaker 3:She's dominated. She's dominating outside of the bedroom.
Speaker 2:So interesting. We just actually had this conversation because we were watching the trailer for Nicole Kidman's new movie, baby Girl, and where she's a CEO and she's being dominated by a younger man and wants to be dominated, whereas in the rest of her life she doesn't give up that control. And I think in that sense, um, yeah, I, I, when I'm in the bedroom, it's completely opposite, I completely succeed. Control. Um, but I can be that person occasionally, like I mean role playing, things like that, like I mean we love to have those experiences. I mean we've been together 25 years, we have to do fun things and we play and try new things, and so I think that you know, there are times where I can dominate, but in a lot of cases most cases it's it's it's seceding control in in that instance.
Speaker 1:I'm a little shocked, I'm just saying I'm like. I'm like I wonder if a lot of people who are doms are autistic because of that direct communication, because of just yeah, I don't know. And just listening to you talk, I'm like I could picture you very and you know, I'm just saying yeah, absolutely, I could picture her being that way.
Speaker 2:For sure, he'll be like we'll watch something. He'll be like oh, that outfit looked good on you with that whip.
Speaker 1:I can see it, but let's's so. Let's sum this up let's give listeners. I want to start with you, heather, as someone who has autism. Can we just knock out a couple of skill building exercises or ways that listeners who have autism can say okay, yes, I am not reading social cues, yes, I am weird about touch or eye contact or whatever? What are ways in which they can work towards building skills that will help their partners connect with them in bed.
Speaker 2:I think if, especially if, you're hypersensitive to touch, um, one of the things I had to do was get more and more and more comfortable with touch over the years. Don't let it be a barrier. If you're hypersensitive to that sensory and you start to get that sensory overload like I do, the the initial thing is to tuck tail. And you start to get that sensory overload like I do, the the initial thing is to tuck tail and run. Don't, don't like, especially in the instance when it comes to sex, because that same hypersensitivity is going to help you have an amazing orgasmic experience. But you have to let yourself get past the, the, the overstimulation, feel, um, and almost ease into it.
Speaker 2:And really I think for me some of the things, and especially um, that have really helped me is yoga, breathing, meditation, things like that that I can bring into settings like this, which I can breathe, because there are ways to calm your autotomic nervous system. You know one of the ones that we've learned recently and there's a whole book about it, it's called ocean breathing, where you're like and you're, you're kind of. You do that over and over again and that's really kind of releasing me. Get past that barrier of overstimulation to where I now enjoy that overstimulation and have different formative experiences. So I think I'd say working towards that is the biggest key is getting over that barrier of overstimulation and understanding your sexual boundaries. There are amazing resources online. The AANE has an amazing section on sexual health for those with autism. So if you don't fully understand the social normities of what's okay and what's not okay and where you should be, depending on where you are on the spectrum, there are amazing resources like that where you can go and really understand what you should and shouldn't do.
Speaker 1:Right, okay, tommy, as a partner to someone who has autism and as you not having one, what are some suggestions, some tools you can give to my listeners so that tonight, when they go home, they right away can start understanding?
Speaker 3:If you're in a committed relationship and you're having these questions because you're not sure how your partner's acting, ask them. Ask them to explain what they're trying to get across, especially if they're not good at showing what they're trying to get across and you can't read them, you know. Ask them, talk to them. That's what helped me a lot was hey, did you just mean this or did you mean this? You know what were you trying to say or what were you trying to do? Also, for me, she gets overwhelmed quickly, especially when you berate her with all kinds of questions. Um, understand, back off and come. Come readjust in an hour or so. If you, if you're not getting the answer you want, or if your partner's overwhelmed, give them a break. Let them relax, let them get that nervous system back down and then readdress the question later.
Speaker 1:Okay, so reasonable, so reasonable Be patient.
Speaker 3:I mean be patient just like with anything or anybody. And if I mean, obviously, if you care about your partner enough, you'll take that time to try to figure out who they are and what they need.
Speaker 1:I want to revisit something you said at the beginning that really struck me and I did oh, I did react to it. I love and I kind of want people to hear this I love how, when things were difficult, your reaction was, well, I'm not going to go anywhere, I'm not going anywhere, I love this person, I'm going to you know, figure it out, and I feel like that's. There's an element of that in modern day dating and relationships that's been lost. I think people want or have this idea of relationships need to be just easy right.
Speaker 1:No, and but I mean also just having the ability to say that to someone and to know it deep inside and say you know, I mean within reason, obviously if someone's being violent to you, physically abusing you come on.
Speaker 1:But within, in the framework of a relationship, things do get hard and you know it takes a long time to really get to know somebody. Time to really get to know somebody you don't know someone really know them at three months or six months or even a year, right, right. But at some point during that time you can begin to love someone and say I know enough that I love you and I'm going to stay the course as the things about you that are challenging come out, because we all have our challenging aspects. I mean, I have a couple, just a couple, but I love that.
Speaker 1:That was sort of like something that was has clearly been communicated by you throughout this process of Heather, because I mean, I know, as someone who was just diagnosed with ADHD, I look back across my life and how nice it would have been to have more people in my life that communicated that or were you know, because obviously I acted in ways that I recognized on some level weren't in line with the way that everybody else was acting and it left me in this very insecure place of feeling like people might flee at any moment from my life I imagine, heather, you experienced that as well and to have a partner with. That was like you know, and again, I know that you guys probably had your spicy moments. Oh yeah, absolutely, but that must have been a nice feeling just to have that in a partnership.
Speaker 2:I'd say that I would not be where I'm at today without his support in all of this and in my growth and his growth and the growth of our relationship and supporting one another. Yeah, I mean we really we found each other young. We didn't even know who the heck we were. We grew up together. We feel like and I think as a result of that um, you know, we've we've had those challenges and, especially for me, when people don't understand me, I can feel very isolated, I can feel very alone, and and finding Tommy did not make me feel alone in the world and I think for that reason alone, it created a connection between us, that that we don't want to be without each other. Is it easy? Heck, no. And have we had our ups and downs.
Speaker 2:Yeah, we're two completely different people, but I think, when you make that commitment that you're going to spend your life together, whether or not you get married, whether or not you share each other's names, yeah, whatever relationship you make that commitment. In a sense, you're making a commitment to work and you're making an effort. You have to make an effort.
Speaker 3:People quit too easy.
Speaker 2:Yeah, quit, way too easy on each other I think that that's the biggest thing is is that we've ridden out so many storms together.
Speaker 3:We we've survived so much well society's pushed taking care of yourself quite a bit in the past few years, which is great. We all need to we all need a little more self-care. But I think it's also taken, it's made people a little more up to just give up on a relationship than not, because they're neat, they're what they need Isn't getting met. Instead of communicating, it's just easier to move on, try to find somebody else that can maybe do that for them.
Speaker 2:And realizing that not every male in the world is toxic. There are there, there they exist and not every female is toxic, Do they exist. There's toxic males, there's toxic females. But understanding that if, if you're not with one of those toxic people, that it's just going to be ups and downs. There's going to be times where you're going to feel like this is why am I doing this again? And, and, and, and. You're going to have horrible sexual experiences.
Speaker 3:We did not, yeah, not every one of our sexual experience. 90% of them have been amazing.
Speaker 2:Yeah, but they're not all perfect, but nothing is ever perfect, and I think that that's the biggest thing in realizing.
Speaker 3:Well, and men need to. Just from a man's standpoint, they just, you know, men just need to listen a little more and not be so penis, you know, envious, you know all this penis envy, you know just. You're good man, just go go communicate.
Speaker 2:And you don't have to feel emasculated by any of it. This is the one thing. I am not anything that happens in our relationship. The whole point of a relationship is we build each other up, and that's what we're dealing. We build, we started our foundation and we've just been building, building, building, building. It's not about tearing each other down and it's not about one person over another. It's about taking care of yourselves so that then you can take care of yourselves together in a healthy way. I love it.
Speaker 1:So for a listener who is here right now, some things that might be a cue that they might need to go and potentially see about a diagnosis for autism. Give me a quick list and then I'll have you tell people where they can find out more about you.
Speaker 2:Definitely Feeling like you just don't fit into this world is definitely the thing I've heard time and time again from other especially autistic women, because women tend to mask more and get diagnosed later in life as a result because they try so hard to fit into the societal norms. Um, and so realizing if you don't fit that societal construct, maybe go see a psychologist to understand why you that you might be autistic, you might, um, you know I have trouble picking up on human emotions. I have. I have trouble understanding how I fit into people's human emotions. I had to read a book to learn to understand human emotions. So I'd say definitely understanding yourself and your place in your society. If you don't question it, they'll figure out why.
Speaker 1:I love that. That's just. It's a very simple thing. If you feel this way, go ask to be screened. Perfect. Any last thoughts before we sign off I love you, tommy. She just showed emotion. Look at that. That was a good social. Oh, wow, adorable. Thank you, that makes me happy, see, I feel like, as your first, I did pretty well, was I gentle, tommy?
Speaker 3:You were.
Speaker 1:Definitely no complaints.
Speaker 3:All right.
Speaker 1:Heather, can you tell everybody where they can find out more about you, the both of you, et cetera.
Speaker 2:Yes, they can definitely follow me on Instagram at HM Florio or at Desert Harvest Aliveira, my company, and yeah, definitely. Or check out our website, desertharvestcom to learn more about all of the amazing things that we do in the sexual health products that we create.
Speaker 1:Perfect. Thank you and listeners, if you have any questions, you know that you can scroll down. There is my speak pipe. You can send me a voice note. You can email me at Annette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom. You can drop a comment in the comment section of my YouTube video that's up. If you're an audio listener, head over to my YouTube channel at TalkSexWithAnnette and drop a comment there. I will do my best to get all of your comments or questions answered. Also, if you are looking to work with an intimacy coach, I have some openings available. Go to my website at TalkSexWithAnettecom and get a hold of me. Thank you, Heather and Tommy. So much, Tommy, especially jumping in at the last moment, and Heather joining me again for such an important conversation. It was wonderful to have you here.
Speaker 2:Thank you, annette, it's wonderful.
Speaker 1:And to my listeners I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.