Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast
Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast
WHY MEN CHEAT & WHY WOMEN CHEAT--AND WHAT TO DO ABOUT IT
Can cheating ever strengthen a relationship? In this episode, we unpack the complexities of infidelity with renowned sex and relationship therapist Dr. Deb Lano. From shifting gender trends to the role of technology in modern affairs, we challenge conventional views on cheating. We explore how communication, intimacy, and understanding emotional dynamics can prevent betrayal—and what it takes to rebuild after it happens. Whether you’re curious about monogamy’s pressures or open relationships, this conversation offers fresh insights into the why, how, and what’s next of infidelity.
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Cheers!
Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room.
Speaker 1:Today's locker room talk topic is why people cheat. I know you all want to know. I also know a lot of my listeners are out there cheating right now, so this goes out to all of you guys. I have done my research and I'm going to tell you from what my research has shown me. Stats are all over the board with how much who cheats, and all of that. The only consistency I've seen listeners is that, well, cis men seem to cheat more, but you know, women are catching up to them. Overall, generally speaking, a lot of cheating is going on in relationships and fortunately I have an expert here who can maybe dive down into the stats, give us a clearer vision of who's cheating, why they're cheating and how much does it matter.
Speaker 1:Today, my guest is Dr Deb Lano. She is a sex and relationship therapist, a published author, a major media contributor and a university professor. You are busy, dr Deb. You are a very busy woman and I have spent a lot of time watching her videos and checking out her website, so I'm excited for you guys to meet her. Will you take a moment to introduce yourself to my listeners?
Speaker 2:Yes. So first, thank you for having me. This is a great topic and it's happening more and more, so it's a very timely topic. But I am Dr Deb Lano, I am in the Philadelphia region and Philadelphia Pennsylvania region and I, you know, as was stated, I'm a sex and relationship therapist, a published author. I just had a new book released. It was actually more of a textbook, but it is also being sold on my website as a regular book because there's just so much information, everything from sexual chemistry to, you know, gender, to healthy relationships, OK, all of that kind of stuff. I'm a major media contributor and that's probably in a nutshell that. I think I said university professor, but I'm also in private practice, so you know just working with relationships and people, and you know even some nutrition stuff, and you know I work with some holistic medical doctors. I take a holistic approach to sexuality and relationships and, yeah, that's in a nutshell.
Speaker 1:I'm excited to have this conversation with you. This is a morning podcast for me, I think afternoon for you, right? So I'm still in coffee mode. You are hydrating, is that right?
Speaker 2:I am hydrating. Yes, Now you know this is clear. We don't know if it's water or vodka.
Speaker 1:Yeah, If she slurs by the end, we know. So let's raise our glass and let's get ready to talk about sex and cheating Cheers. So you know, let's just dive right in. Can you clear up some of the stats that are out there? I mean, I did find consistencies and who was cheating more and less, but I thought maybe you could sort of give us a better idea of what's really happening, and I'm assuming that we are talking about monogamous relationships.
Speaker 2:Yes, because you know, when you get into, like polyamorous relationships or you know, you know whatever open relationships, obviously there's it's a completely different topic, ok, and subject matter, but these days, when you look at the data, um, you're looking at a very close line of males and females, okay, who are having affairs and relationships. 10 years ago, I think the uh, it was about a five point difference. I remember seeing about 43 and about 38, 38% of women cheating, 43% of men cheating in monogamous relationships and that gap is closing right. So some of the latest research that I looked at was, you know, 41, 43. All right, so, and it doesn't, as we get into this, you'll see, you know why that doesn't, you know, shouldn't surprise anyone, especially with technology. Okay, as an example, I would say that males and females in both same-sex relationships and heterosexual relationships are cheating fairly equally. Okay, I have not seen data on the trans community or anything like that. So you know, we'll probably stick with you know, just, same sex heterosexual affairs.
Speaker 1:I really appreciate that. I didn't expect you to address it right off the bat, but I really appreciate that because I do. I identify as LGBTQ and I was kind of and it will be interesting to discuss well, this gendered difference. How does it come into play when we're looking at same sex and when we're looking at heteronormative relationships? I assume because the trans community, all that research, is just relatively new and newly being studied. It's just, you know, there's not a lot of data on it. So I do try to make sure for listeners that we are covering all gender options and relationship styles and sexuality. So thank you for addressing that right off the bat. So let's just get into it.
Speaker 1:Do you find that there is a difference between cis men and cis women in the Y? Now, I guess the standard explanation that tends to be given is men are out there for more sex. Different sex Women are out there for more sex. Different sex Women are out there for validation and emotional support. I am going to be very transparent, as I always am in this podcast. I have both cheated and I've both been and also been cheated on, and it's interesting to me because that definitely doesn't completely line up with my reasons or experience, or when I've talked to my other girlfriends, Like I feel like women's sexual needs are underrepresented, maybe, and like we also, we want different sex, we want to keep it spicy, we get bored and then we stop wanting to have sex in relationships and we go out and we look for someone to bang. But I would like to hear your thoughts and research on it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so so much, right? I mean, first off, I think that you know the definition of, of cheating is different for different people, right? I mean some people if you look at porn, if you're their partner, and you look at porn, you cheated. If you like a picture on social media of you know someone that you might be attracted to, or someone your partner perceives as attractive, that could be perceived, okay, as at least pre-infidelity, right, I mean? So there's so much I mean I've heard over so many years of being in this line of work that you know if you look at another person or if you do this or if you do that, like everybody's got their own own rules around this, even emotional infidelity.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so I'm going to interrupt you because I did start in the wrong place. Maybe where we should have started was what's the definition of infidelity? How are we defining this and studying it?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so, you know, like I said, I think it's different for all people. We know there's emotional affairs, we know there's physical affairs. Physical affairs tend to be a higher betrayal factor. Okay, um, for for most people, um, there is a little bit of research on um. When a in a, in a heterosexual, cisgender, you know relationship, that, uh, if a, if a woman has a physical affair, it's more betrayal for the man, and if the man has an emotional affair, it can be more of betrayal for the female, and that, again, is one side of the research.
Speaker 2:There is multiple, I think, diversity here. Okay, with regards to you know how this is defined by different people, and I think that that's okay, right, and I think that those conversations actually need to happen in a relationship, like, how is infidelity defined, so that there's some healthy boundaries? Okay, and I kind of use quotes with healthy because you know, if someone says, well, I don't want you looking at another woman or man, I don't want you liking, I don't want you being on, you know friends with any of the you know same sex or opposite sex people on social media, right, then we're, we're getting into some unhealthy territory, right, so we've got to, you know, understand that as well. Right, so we've got to understand that as well.
Speaker 1:So you're saying at the top of the game, like when you first get into the relationship and decide you're committed, having the conversation about, like, what does commitment mean? What constitutes cheating? It hadn't even occurred to me, but you are right. I've heard people refer to viewing porn as a type of cheating and I'm like holy crap, then I've cheated a lot. You know, if that isn't clearly defined in upfront, there's a lot of wiggle room right In a relationship to get extra needs met.
Speaker 2:Especially in the age of technology, right? Like if somebody DMs a dick pic or you know, and then you know their partner responds to it, right? I mean there's just so many ways to view this, okay, especially with technology, right? If somebody's flirting with somebody or sends a little winky picture on Facebook and their partner sees it right, I mean these can feel like threats and you know, technology obviously is one of the reasons why people are cheating more. I believe that 150%.
Speaker 1:Since we are talking about heteronormative relationships and same-sex marriages or relationships, how does that look when you've got two women together and infidelities? Do you see a difference between the queer community and the heterosexual community and how that all looks?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I don't see too much of a difference. Okay, some of the emotional, you know affairs that happen, you know, with same sex female relationships. You know, I think it really ultimately depends on the people, because you will see affairs happening across the board. Okay, I just, you know, last night got off a session and you know, narcissistic tendencies are, you know, usually directed at males. Okay, at least the trend is, we know that that's not necessarily true, but you know, this female was in a relationship with a female prior to her male partner and they both cheated on her and completely denied it, um, and went through a very similar experience, um, with, uh, both partners.
Speaker 2:Okay, so you will see similarities, you know, with cheating, because the accessibility is there for the LGBTQA++ community, for the heterosexual community. I mean, the accessibility is there, matter of fact. You know, as I was saying, with the, you know, online technology, dating apps. I was teaching a class yesterday and we were talking about how the LGBTQA plus community uses, you know, dating. When there's, when there is accessibility, there is going to be more of the behavior patterns and that doesn't mean that, you know, heterosexual people aren't using dating apps, right, I mean, obviously we know that they are. But you know the LGBT community is getting you know, using them more.
Speaker 1:I want to go back to your comment about narcissism and how that plays into cheating. You kind of threw that out real quickly about narcissistic I'm sorry, narcissistic tendencies directed at men. Can you talk about narcissism and cheating and how that goes together or doesn't?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and I think there's layers to that as well, right? I mean, a good friend of mine who is a holistic medical doctor had said to me I mean, we all have layers of narcissism, right, I mean so and I agree with that, that line of thinking okay, you've got at the top, like the NPD, the narcissistic personality disorder, okay, and then you've got layers of it. You know throughout, when you're, when somebody is doing something, knowing that if somebody finds out they're going to be hurt, you, that's a narcissistic tendency. You are in the mode of meeting your own needs at the cost of someone else's emotion for multiple back-to-back affairs. Okay, now, again, narcissism is a trendy word right now and it's, you know, the fingers pointed, you're a bad person, um, but the reality is, is that there's there's layers of of narcissism?
Speaker 2:Okay, and you know, we all carry some of those, those traits and behavior patterns, okay. So, again, I know I'm going to hurt somebody doing this, but my needs right now blow yours out of the water, so screw you. Okay, and I'm going to do this because this meets my need right now. Right, but there's underlying things for that too, right? I mean, you know, you know, you look at all the reasons why people have affairs right. Boredom, accessibility needs not being risk reward type stuff. You know, some people don't have any self-control, some people are unsatisfied in the relationship, right I mean. So there's drivers to some of these behaviors too, so it all has to be looked at.
Speaker 1:Right. So one of the things I want to talk about this is like looking at monogamous relationships. You've got a relationship style that came about for certain reasons at a certain time in history, where the lifeline was you know, we've had long talks about it is this element of really feeling trapped in a situation where you still love your partner but you are very unsatisfied. It feels unfixable and in most cases it was unfixable. But you've got now you're legally married, which is super fucking messy to get out of. You've got kids. You've got finance like just to live separately would break you finance. You know what I mean. There's all these things that come into play and then you're in a relationship where you just the two of you just can't meet each other in a place that works.
Speaker 1:And so many people have just said you know, yeah, I love them, but they haven't had sex with me for a year. I need to have sex. I've tried to negotiate. Or they're having sex with me once a month, or when they have sex with me, I can tell they hate it, or you know, whatever it may be, what about that element? And that we do make a commitment to one another to be there for each other and each other's needs, but cheating is held as so much more terrible than refusing to meet your partner's intimate needs or you know what I mean which, which no one owes anyone sex. Let me be clear. It's just so very complicated and I'm curious what your view on that is.
Speaker 2:I completely agree, complicated, okay. You just like, took a day out of my office and what I see regularly, right? Um, so there's, I think, a different, uh, several different ways to look at this. First off, I, I would go back and I, I always kind of teach this idea that, uh, we don't have a system, we don't have an education system that teaches about healthy relationships. Okay, bottom line, people are, you know, floating around out there. Flopping around out there, you get messages about your soulmate or your other half, right, so I mean, you're, you're not even in this realm, you're not even considered a whole person. Even in this realm, you're not even considered a whole person. Okay, so I mean, it's just so mind blowing. Um, but I do believe that if we had a education system that taught, say, something like comprehensive sexuality okay, that included healthy relationships and healthy sexuality and people had a mentality around healthy sexuality, or a healthy mentality around healthy sexuality, healthy relationships, um, and could talk about these issues, I think that we would understand the psychology around these issues much better. Okay, and to be able to say this is what I like when I see people in those situations that you defined, a lot of them can't express how they're actually feeling about sex. And there's two sides to it the side of I don't want to have sex because this is how I'm feeling about myself, or about you, or about some of the things that I had experienced in my life. Or, you know, even things like I would like you to do this to me because this feels really good. Right, so that we are creating non-complacency in sex. You know so, and then you know I.
Speaker 2:I take the position of understanding the importance of um, distance in a relationship and intimacy and how they work hand in hand together. Right, because boredom is huge. Boredom is a huge reason why people have affairs. Okay, they get complacent in the relationship. They, you know, don't feel, you know, sexually attractive, it's not exciting. And if we understood that you don't have to know your partner like the back of your hand, okay, you should trust your partner, but you don't need to know every detail about them to have intimacy. Okay, Mystery is one of the things that brings on, you know, eroticism, like erotic thinking. So you know, there's just such a lack of education around relationships and sex in a long-term relationship. Okay, so when people keep their own identities and they have their own interests and they have it emotionally fused with the other person. They be they, they remain erotically charged.
Speaker 1:Right and and when, um, you start changing yourself to fit the personality of the relationship, right and do you? You know, I think what makes us fall for each other is like you see this person in their uniqueness and what makes them like shine and magical, and you get together with them and then that shine can be intimidating, it's like a jewel. What if everybody else sees it and there is some part of us that wants to dull that shine or hide it and keep it for ourselves? And that can happen in a relationship. And when that shine's gone and suddenly you're like, oh, maybe you aren't the one, you know what I mean and we do kind of stop doing the things that make us shine and exciting to our partners.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think it's so profound what you say there is no comprehensive class or lesson or teachings on a healthy relationship. I talk about sex a lot and how we are taught how to make babies, but we are not taught about pleasure and how to have and give each other pleasure. Even just through doing this podcast over the two and a half years and I thought I was pretty knowledgeable. I mean, I've definitely explored, but I have learned so much and I have realized how little I even knew, and I'm still learning about pleasuring someone else and pleasuring myself, and here we have people committing life together who don't even know how to be intimate truly.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I mean, think about it, pleasure is vaginal penile penetration. I mean that's, you know, for years that's what it was right. And then the you know LGBT community comes in and they're like, well, wait a second. Well then that delegitimizes, you know, the sex that I'm having, because I don't have a penis, I have a vagina. And you have a vagina Like we're having sex, like what the hell? And then even with the asexual community, right, I mean you know they're not even really having sex, okay, and so how are they? You know they they're sex, okay, and so how are they? You know they they're that's a group that feels really unlegitimized, okay, and they shouldn't, okay, but you know, so, yeah, we, we, we don't do anything with pleasure except penile penetration.
Speaker 1:Right, right, and I think hopefully that's becoming more expansive. Now that we're finding about all the different ways to have sex and what sex really is, I feel like, with women's sexual empowerment really being up and coming focus, generally speaking, at least in America, would you say that there's more acknowledgement around women also cheating because we want to get off because of sex, and there's. I get annoyed when people are like, oh, she just did that, she needs attention, and I'm like, yeah, it is, it is pigeonholing, holding women as just being a needy emotional horse. I just feel like we also like sex. I mean, and especially as we get older, I've noticed women in their 40s plus and we've kind of been through the baby making years and that pressure. We're like, oh damn, I want to, I want to bang, I want to get off and I want to be spicy. I want to go check out. You know BDSM, I want to check, you know. At least that seems to be what I'm seeing in studies, what I'm hearing from people and reading across the board.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I would agree with that. I think that there's the double standard. I think it still exists, but I think that, as, if they don't like it, hopefully they communicate about it, but they can also leave the relationship in different ways. So my second book was actually called 11 reasons why women cheat. Okay, and it was many years ago, and back then, uh, I, uh and I was doing some research, but I was also doing a lot of like, uh, community questioning, right, and you know, questions in bars and that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2:But, um, the number one reason that I found for women cheating and this was probably 2006. Okay, so it was quite a number of years ago um, was that their needs weren't being met. Okay, like, I have sexual needs, I have emotional needs, I have psychological needs, and if you cannot meet those needs, okay, somebody else is going to. And I came up with this saying, you know, many years ago, which I still think holds true that if you don't know what number one your needs are, as well as your partner's needs, um, and they the same to you, you are opening the door for someone else to come in and meet those needs. So, if you're not going to meet your partner's needs, you're opening the door for someone else too.
Speaker 1:But now men, cis men, are you finding that is theirs, emotional as well?
Speaker 2:I think we're seeing it coming closer. You know, when you look at a relationship, males tend to have sex for emotional connection. They get their emotional connection through sex. Women need to feel emotionally connected in order to want to have sex. Now there's always outliers, okay, but in general in in relationships, you're going to see those trends. Okay, because you know everybody wants to.
Speaker 2:You know kind of talk about, you know the, the variation and gender and all of that, and I think that's important. But we also have some biological pieces here. Okay, with estrogen, testosterone and other neurochemicals and hormones and wiring. You know that is different with males and females. I find that, um, you know, testosterone is a driver of sex Okay, one of its uses. Women have testosterone too. Okay, estrogen makes women, you know, part of what makes women more sensitive and emotionally entangled, and all of that is the estrogen progesterone mix. Um, but per deciliter of blood, the testosterone acts very similarly in women as it does in men. And then we get into all this cultural stuff that says women are sluts and all of that. So it gets a little crazy. But I think the number one reason, or at least the top reason, for men having affairs also is needs not being met, because men do get emotional needs met through sex and if they're not getting those needs met then you know they can feel disconnected from a partner.
Speaker 1:I mean and you do hear a lot of people who cheat and then they're caught will say I still love my partner, I don't want this to end. I didn't not love them when I did this. Do you believe that's true? Because I believe that's true Just in what I've seen and witnessed. I believe there's a truth to that.
Speaker 2:I believe that, absolutely. In most cases, um and that's where we get into other reasons for people having affairs right, like, um, I love my partner, they don't show me any attention. I love my partner, I want to be with them, but when I try to tell them what I need, they don't listen to me. Okay, I love my partner, but, um, you know, they aren't interested in me. Okay, and I feel like I'm alone. I feel like my partner doesn't love me, but I love them, right? So there's all kinds of you know dynamics.
Speaker 1:Oh my gosh. Right that hearing you say that I believe. So people specifically, I love my partner but I don't feel like they're interested in me. I've heard a lot and I have felt this I love my partner but I don't think they like me, but they don't want to let me go. A lot of times I've heard people say you know, I tried to break it off but they don't want me to.
Speaker 2:And so like I don't want to be with anyone else either.
Speaker 1:And I feel like so can we talk about and maybe this is getting off the topic, but I think it's important. I do think that comes into cheating a lot, where one person who's cheated like they're like this isn't working. I'm so lonely, I don't think you're into me, I don't want to die not having sex ever again, and the other person is like I don't want to have sex with you, but you're sure as fucking hell not going to be with anybody else. I'm going to stay in this relationship. What is what is that, dr deb? That is so common and it is so infuriating to me because it is like torture and inevitably the person who is is the one who wants to have sex is going to cheat and inevitably they're going to be the bad guy, sure, by societal standards I think it's control right, and I think it's insecurity, um, and accountability issues, all right.
Speaker 2:I don't think we're taught in relationships how to take accountability and responsibility control issues, and I don't know how to take accountability and responsibility. So I don't really want to have sex. Okay, for A, b, c and D reasons. I don't want you going out and having sex with somebody else because if you do, you betrayed the relationship, but at the same time, I'm not going to take accountability for the fact that, like, I haven't come on to you, I haven't had sex with you. It's been a month, it's been six months. I don't think. I don't think affairs should happen because you haven't had sex with your partner for three months. Okay, depending on what's going on.
Speaker 2:But when, when those months get up there, okay, like you're running a risk of your partner having an affair and you need to take some stock of that. You need to take some accountability of that and really hone in on why the heck that's not happening, why you're not interested in sex with your partner. Because if you think that that person is just there in your life to serve you and your needs emotionally, then you have no idea what a relationship is about. Okay, like you know, sex is part of a relationship. It's a glue that holds it together, unless you are, you know, asexual and you are with an asexual partner and those relationships can be fine and healthy.
Speaker 2:But you need to take accountability right. Like, okay, maybe it's, I have pain when I have sex. Okay, well, what are you doing about it? Okay, I don't like the way you treat me. All right, how are you working, both of you, on resolving those issues? You don't just stop, OK, and then tell the person that a very important part of their life they can't have anymore because you are with me and I don't want you to leave me. Or I don't want to leave you, but I'm also don't want you to live your best life. That's selfish. I mean, you know there's hues of narcissism in that mentality as well. On the other side, I was going to say.
Speaker 1:It's really interesting how that can pop up in different ways. Right, I was married for years and I'm still like best friends with my now parenting partner. And you know, we we tried monogamy, we tried non monogamy, open relationship, and the relationship just got to this point where I really didn't want to have sex anymore with him and not, I still found him attractive. I knew he was attractive man, but there was something that we just couldn't heal and I remember just looking at him and going thing that we just couldn't heal. And I remember just looking at him and going like I want you. I will not steal that from you, I support you and in finding that with somebody until we figure this out because I couldn't figure it out, like you know, we couldn't figure out what was happening and you know we never did.
Speaker 1:Obviously, we transitioned to a different type of relationship, but for me it was like God, I never. I don't want to take this from somebody else. I know that's wrong. Right, our conversation is straight a little bit. Not really, because I do think this is a solid, relatable example that you hear repeated again and again and again and why people feel like they can't leave. Right, and instead of cheating, and it's so.
Speaker 2:it can be easier to cheat Right.
Speaker 2:And instead of cheating and it's so. It can be easier to cheat, right? I mean, it can be easier to meet those needs on the down low than to confront these issues that could have been years of buildup, 20, 30 years of a buildup, and it's just for a lot of people it's an easier way out, okay, um, to to have this sort of second life. Okay, and I understand that I get it. Okay, but it's, it's not the productive way, it's not the ethical way you know to do things. I will tell you this also on a side note, that I find that when women don't want to have sex, it is because 90, I don't know, 95% of the time, you know that's just my rough estimate that they have emotionally shut down to their partner for whatever reason, maybe that they, um, you know, aren't being heard or being acknowledged or you know whatever, but it's usually an emotional shutdown.
Speaker 2:Okay, that um makes a female partner not want to have sex. And again, there's other things too. Right, there can be the question of wait. Am I attracted to men? Maybe I'm attracted to women, you know, like those types of things, I mean.
Speaker 1:I would like to say I think most of us go there and most of us are, but I'm just saying.
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I mean what? Why this is such an interesting topic is because it's very personal to people. It's it's very unique to people, everything from how they define affairs and cheating to you know the reasons why, and also a very important part is how they resolve it, right. I mean, I've seen, I've seen some things where I was like my God, if that happened to me I would not be in that relationship, but they managed to work through it. Somebody had 30 affairs on somebody before Right and and a couple of kids outside of the marriage that they had no idea of. Okay, and you know, they ended up staying in the relationship and working through it, through it.
Speaker 1:Did he have money? Did he have money? And she was like there was.
Speaker 2:there was a lot of money, but I think the point is is that like people resolve, you know people resolve things very differently, right? Some people have very strong values on affairs and that value says if you cheat on me, we're done, that's against my values. Other people have different values, right, like Annette. Your values around it now have grown into a different arena and you know you are maybe a bit, you know, not as harsh as some other people, based on even your own experiences.
Speaker 1:Yeah, no, I have a lot of empathy for the human condition in relationships I've been through you know a lot, as I know we all have, and what I don't. I don't see people as black and white, good and bad. Now, let's be honest. Sometimes there are people who are just fucking dicks, like, like you don't care people as black and white, good and bad. Now let's be honest. Sometimes there are people who are just fucking dicks, like you don't care about this person. But I don't feel like that. I don't believe that that is the most common situation and I, you know, I'm not pro, I'm not promoting cheating, but I also feel like, yes, it's not ethical to cheat, but it's also not ethical to hold someone hostage in a relationship where you don't intend on meeting their needs. I agree.
Speaker 1:And that's kind of you know where it's at and we all need to be gentle on each other. But we also live in a society that really is kind of puritanical and one person is scorned like the cheater will be scorned by society, by their friend group, maybe by the children who can be used in divorce situations based on infidelity, even though the other person, I think, was equally responsible in making that happen. And so I just I love this conversation. I love that you're having this conversation and that your approach to talking about it, because I think the more we talk about it, the more people can start looking at relationships which are so important and do often involve children, and finding a kinder way.
Speaker 1:Like I am really good friends with my ex and my ex and I definitely hurt each other, but we were able to be compassionate about, um, what was happening and like you're not a bad person, I'm not a bad person. We have the situation and it's not perfect, Trust me. It wasn't like this beautiful, not messy thing, um, but we landed in a great place and I would love to see that happen more in our society. So I mean, I guess you know we could talk all I could talk to you about this literally all day. But we can't do that, so I do just have a couple last questions. Do you think affairs ever help relationships?
Speaker 2:affairs ever help relationships. Yes, a lot of people give me a side eye when I say that, but affairs will help a relationship when the affair puts the relationship at ground zero and everyone is taking accountability and responsibility, and then they can rebuild their relationship, recognizing that they both had their roles in it.
Speaker 1:Yes, yeah, thank you, and the relationship can become stronger yeah it can become stronger. The accountability on both sides, which is so hard for people to do. Accountability is something I think humans struggle with right Owning our own stuff generally and I guess, on the flip side of that, how often do you think cheating is just ground zero, like when people are just like you cheat on me at all, it's just done like going into a relationship. Well, what do you think of that approach?
Speaker 2:Um, you know, it's somebody's value system and I don't want to judge that value system, but I think we have to understand the reasons why. And I I'm not saying that again, like you said, annette, I don't condone affairs. Okay, I understand affairs in most cases and there's some cases that I don't understand, and when and I want this to be clear to your listeners is that if somebody cheats on you and you know you can understand your role, that's great. But there are those people who are hurtful, right, I don't think they're in the norm, I agree with you like that, but there are. And if somebody is just like repeatedly having affairs, you know there's a problem and you know that person obviously has to take responsibility too. I also want to say this that a lot of people have told me that it wasn't even necessarily the affair that was the problem, it was all the lies around it. So now, yeah, like how do I trust you? Who are you? You know, and that becomes the trauma, you know situation. So I do think that if someone is is habitual, okay, with these types of things, then there's a problem. And in order to not come out of the relationship with post-traumatic stress disorder, depression, anxiety, all of that kind of stuff, there is a time to leave the relationship.
Speaker 2:I will say this on that note if somebody's had one affair, there's about a 75% chance that it can be fixed. Two affairs 50. More than two affairs 25 and less. So people make mistakes. If somebody has an affair, you can work through it. It can take years to work through it, but the more that somebody has, or the more that somebody finds out about, okay, like there's the affair, but then three years later they find out that they had five other affairs at the same time and they spent the last five years believing that there was only that one affair. We've got what I call a shit storm, because you needed to just come out and be honest with everything, ground zero, right, lay it on the line so that everybody can heal from this.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, that's fascinating, I do think, the mix of cheating with somebody really gaslighting and manipulating you. I've been cheated on by well, a couple of people, but one person in general where it just felt like emotional and mental abuse combined with cheating, you know, and I was like this is beyond, like two good people in a long-term relationship, that kind of stray and fuck up. This is like somebody, the toxicity. You can feel it emotionally, you feel sick, almost emotionally, like something dirty is inside your body. I don't know how to explain it, but there is a very distinct difference between, I think, kinds of cheating and and the people who are doing it and the reasons.
Speaker 2:So yeah, and listening to your gut, right, I mean, you know, just like you were saying, right, like if I'm questioning, like everything that I'm feeling, there's something going on here Maybe it's within me but maybe it's with somebody else like also trying to get inside, like the gaslighting stuff, Like. I always try to tell people you know, look, trust your gut.
Speaker 1:There's so many things I could ask you, but I guess I'll have to save it for another time if I am able to get you back on the show, and I want to thank you so much for having this candid conversation. It's really enlightening and it is, I think, dynamic. Relationship dynamics are ever changing, evolving, and so the information we have now on why people are doing what they do is evolving and changing, and I think this conversation has really shed light on some really important topics around cheating and infidelity why people do it, where accountability is important and whether or not it's worth trying to heal. So, yes, so thank you. I would love for you to take a moment and tell my listeners where they can find you. I mean, are you open for counseling? If there's someone out there that that has in the middle of an affair and wants help? Like, what all do you have out there for people to check out and connect with?
Speaker 2:do you have out there for people to check out and connect with? Yeah, absolutely, and thank you for having me. Okay, I mean, I always love these types of shows and you know, just, you know podcasts in general. People can go to your sex doccom. I am, ironically, still doing a lot of remote sessions. So you know I can see people. I've got clients in California so and I, you know I also, obviously you know I have an office here in Pennsylvania and I do relationship retreats and all kinds of stuff. But you know my website, my contact information is on my website and you know anything that you need is there.
Speaker 1:I will also put all of Dr Deb's. Can I just call you Dr Deb?
Speaker 2:Yes.
Speaker 1:I want to call you Dr Deb.
Speaker 1:So many people do Information in the notes of this podcast so that you can go directly to her site and check it out. I want to look into those relationship retreats so many of you may want to. Also, you guys know where to find me on social media. It is in the notes of this podcast, but Instagram, facebook, locker room talking shots she explores life, and you can always connect with me on my personal Instagram, which is being Benedetti Don't forget to watch this on YouTube at Annette Benedetti, and I'm on TikTok Locker Room Talk and Shots podcast. So until next time, guys, if you're cheating, think about it. Relisten to this episode. Make some better choices. If you are not meeting your partner's needs, do the same same. Until next time. I will see you all in the locker room. Cheers.