Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast
Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast
Compersion: From Jealousy to Juicy In & Out of the Bedroom
Can jealousy turn juicy? In this episode, we’re diving into the seductive and transformative world of compersion—the sizzling feeling of joy for your partner’s pleasure with someone else. Join me and Dr. Marie Thouin, the groundbreaking expert on this juicy topic, as we explore how compersion can heat up your love life, whether you're in a monogamous or non-monogamous relationship. We’re flipping the script on jealousy, turning it from a painful emotion into a powerful tool for deeper intimacy, emotional growth, and electric connections. Ready to go from jealousy to juicy? This is the episode for you!
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Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's locker room and Shots topic is compersion From jealousy to juicy why their fun can be your foreplay.
Speaker 1:Now, for many of us, the leap from the concept that monogamy might not be the only correct type of relationship to the idea that there are non-traditional relationship styles that are not only okay but thrive has been a big one, but more and more people are making that leap. Now an even bigger leap is the concept of compersion, and I'm going to give you my messy jab at a definition. Don't worry, I've got someone here who will clean it up later. Compersion, as I understand it, is a person's ability to drive joy, pleasure, good feelings from witnessing, knowing about, maybe even watching their partner's, maybe even watching their partner's enjoyment, pleasure with another partner. I don't know, are you following me, folks? Anyways, it may be hard for you to imagine this. It at times is hard for me to imagine, but I see a lot of worth in jumping down the rabbit hole of learning about anything that has the possibility of making love more expansive, less possessive, less jealousy filled, less scary, and so today we are going to learn about conversion from the expert. I'm going to call her the expert and I'll tell you why in just a second.
Speaker 1:My expert on conversion is Dr Marie Thuin. She is a leading expert and scholar on conversion and consensual non-monogamy. She authored the first ever scholarly book on conversion. I'm holding it up Head over to my YouTube channel We'll talk about it in a minute. And two pioneering research studies and this really impressed me. The first ever encyclopedia entry on conversion. That really, really, really impressed me. Marie is also the founder of Love Insight, a mindful dating and relationship coaching practice where she supports people of all ages, genders and sexual slash relationship orientations to create vibrant and intentional love lives, including folks navigating non-monogamy and or non-traditional relationship structures. Welcome, marie. I'm excited about this conversation and will you take a moment to tell my listeners a little bit more about you and your book? It's what is Compersion, understanding Positive Empathy in Consensual, non-monogamous Relationships.
Speaker 2:Thank you, annette. It's really great to be here and to anticipate this really juicy conversation with you. I actually really love how you framed from jealousy to juicy. I've never heard that before. I love it. So, yes, my name is Marie Toine and I've been a coach for about five years and I've been a scholar for a little bit more than that, and it's been really great focusing my studies on compersion, because when I started about well 10 years ago now in 2014 is when I started my PhD there was very little on compersion out there, so I was able to start building a bit of a body of research and now there's more researchers and scholars focusing on this. So it's been really great having a foot in both worlds the world of academia and the world of coaching so I can work with real people having real issues, not just the research of it.
Speaker 1:Yeah, so we are going to have a great conversation about this. And listeners yeah, so we are going to have a great conversation about this and listeners. I want you to stay to the end because, while conversion, as I understand it, is specific in many ways to consensual non-monogamy, I feel pretty optimistic that learning about this concept is going to be useful, regardless of whatever relationship style you're in useful regardless of whatever relationship style you're in. What I know from my own life and from working with people is in love whether it's romantic love or relationship, love that's friendship-based, family-based there's a lot of fear, fear of loss, fear of abandonment. It's hard. I remember, even as a young child, worrying about if my best friend got another friend and was having fun with them. Did that mean that suddenly they didn't want to be my friend anymore? And if you really sit down and think about it, you can find areas in your life that this shit shows up. So my hope and my goal is that by the end of this podcast, you guys are going to have some tangible takeaways that are going to reduce the fear in your life when it comes to love and connection, and we're going to give you some tools to do that and you're like, hey, maybe I want to be non-monogamous, Maybe we should try.
Speaker 1:A lot of you are there. Or you are just into non-monogamy and you're struggling with fear and jealousy. Well, this is definitely, definitely the podcast episode for you. So I'm just saying let's get juicy, let's go from jealousy to juicy. Are you ready? Let's talk about compersion Cheers. Can we just start with you cleaning up my messy definition of compersion? What is compersion?
Speaker 2:Well, that is a great question. I am really appreciating the definition you gave, because that is one of three definitions that me and my colleague, dr Sharon Flicker, co-authored for the encyclopedia that you mentioned earlier. So it was the Springer Encyclopedia of Sexual Psychology and Behavior that entrusted both of us last year, in 2023, into developing an official definition of compersion, and what you spoke about was the first part of the definition, which is the broad range of positive emotions that we might experience in relation to our partner's enjoyment of another intimate relationship. So that's the I am feeling happy because you're happy with somebody else definition. Now I want to add to that definition because my research showed that compersion is not only an emotion. It can also be a set of thoughts, attitudes and behaviors behaviors so even when I'm not feeling emotionally happy or turned on or excited, when my partner is with someone else intimately, I can still show up in a compulsive way.
Speaker 2:So that second definition is the broad range of positive attitudes, behaviors and thoughts that one might experience in relation to their partner's other intimate relationships. So I talk about that in my book the difference between embodied compersion and attitudinal compersion. And then number three you also reference that and it's compersion in other life situations besides intimate relationships, and that includes really any life context where we could experience jealousy. But maybe we also experience compersion. So it's the range of positive emotions, thoughts, behaviors and attitudes that we can experience as positive empathy for somebody else in any context. So it's taking conversion out of the non-monogamous context where it originated and expanding it to broader contexts.
Speaker 1:All right, kit, I present an example to you of that that I think would be really applicable to listeners, to everybody.
Speaker 1:So, for instance, would that kind of conversion have to do with, I think, a female relationships a lot and our relationship to one another, which I think historically has been built on competition for men and then eventually, when we made it into the workplace, for climbing the ladder and one of the hardships I think we experience within female empowerment is our relationship with each other, and oftentimes women will talk about whether it's in the workplace or on the street seeing a woman who might be prettier on the street or get more attention.
Speaker 1:Another woman will feel this jealousy right off the bat. Or in the workplace someone might try and stop another woman from getting a new position, a higher position, because they're worried about there not being a space at the top. But if you learn which I don't know if you can learn compersion, but we're going to get there. But so this aspect of compersion sounds like it can be taken into that space and people can practice like, instead of feeling jealousy, feeling happy and excited for that person, or at least working to understand that that jealousy could be excitement and happiness instead.
Speaker 2:Well, I'll refer back to that two-part definition of compersion being sometimes attitudinal and sometimes emotional.
Speaker 2:So the gift in that is that you don't have to feel compersion in order to be compersive.
Speaker 2:So in that beautiful example that you gave of, you know, like female competition, which is so common and I experienced it all the time as a woman I can show up in a way that is supportive of another woman's success, even if there is a part of me that feels jealous. And that's a wonderful kind of liberating thought to have, because I don't have to wait until I'm completely resolved with all my jealousy and all my envy, until I can show up in a way that is more congruent with my ethics and my values. So if I really want to support other people, other women, other humans, I can act in ways that are congruent with compersion. And that doesn't mean I have to repress jealousy because, to be honest, annette, I think jealousy is always going to be there. I mean it takes a lot for jealousy to not show its head and if we had to wait until we can completely eliminate jealousy in order to be good to each other, we would never get there.
Speaker 1:I love that you say that I feel like in my life because I've done a lot of work on jealousy, which for me and I think for a lot of people, but I only want to speak for me in this setting really came from a place of my own insecurities, especially when it came to jealousy with other women.
Speaker 1:Well, when I was younger, I had to figure out am I jealous or do I want to date them? Like I'm confused by the feelings going on. But but um, and I think at this point in my life I'm at this place where I can acknowledge, uh, two things can be true within myself at the same time. You know, like sometimes I can feel that that jealousy and then, at the same time, feel the joy for the woman, especially when it's other women, because my work really is like all about supporting other women. But it's hard when you're in a situation where you're working hard to be the best at what you are, or to be to attract someone right, or you're into, and some other woman walks in the room and just like glows and you want to be like oh yeah, you go girl.
Speaker 2:But you're also like you know you get the spicy feeling inside, but so what you're?
Speaker 1:saying is jealousy and conversion can exist at the same time. Yes, exactly Within you in a situation.
Speaker 2:Absolutely, and they often do, and I have a whole chapter about that in my book, the Coexistence of Jealousy and Conversion. And I think it's really important to normalize that and to actually know that we can cultivate compersion anytime, you know, and it can coexist with jealousy and it can really inform how we treat people and how we treat ourselves. I mean, I'm all about, you know, like working on our jealousy, meaning like investigating where does it come from and can we fill our own cup and can we fill our relational cups to the point where jealousy might lose some of its edge? Because when we really understand it and we create as much abundance as possible in our own lives, then we might not be as likely to be a prey to intense jealousy. And you know, for that jealousy to take the wheel of our relationships.
Speaker 2:Because that's really what we're wanting to avoid first and foremost is the weaponization of jealousy, Like when jealousy takes the wheel and all of a sudden we're striking against ourselves or striking against somebody else because we're in pain. Then that's when jealousy becomes really destructive. But if we can handle jealousy in a way that is not destructive, maybe it serves to inform us, as a tool of self-awareness, and there's even times in romantic relationships where jealousy can be framed as a positive thing, as a turn-on. We can play with jealousy in fun ways. Then you know we're not putting jealousy at the driver's wheel of the car, but it can be one of the passengers in a way. That's okay and even potentially fun.
Speaker 1:Yeah, I want to. Just.
Speaker 1:We're just going to stop right there at the jealousy as a turn on because I've definitely experienced that in my life a lot, and and so, and obviously played with it in sexual settings with partners, when we've, you know, had threesomes or foursomes or moresomes or whatever, and and I think when I was younger and there were no words for it, like I didn't, I thought something was kind of wrong with me, right, I'm like I know I'm jealous, but then I'm like wanting this thing to happen, but then I don't, because I'm afraid, and then I do, you know, and not understanding what was happening could be really destructive, because, you know, I'd almost like push my partner to do things and then they do it, and then I would be mad about it.
Speaker 1:And then, as I got older and learned more about like well, when I, you know, started to understand there was polyamory, non-monogamy and conversion then I was like, oh, I'm jealous, but maybe is it a mixing of jealousy and conversion that like makes seeing your partner with like. What is the turn on with jealousy? Can you explain that and frame it in how it shows up in relationships?
Speaker 2:Yes, and that's a whole section in my book as well. The erotic side of conversion and jealousy. Part of that is the re-sexualization of our partners through a third person gaze, and that is something that Esther Perel, the famous psychotherapist, talks about a lot is when we see our partner from the perspective of someone else, we tend to reawaken that erotic flame because it's erotic. It's erotic to, you know, like watch our partner with somebody else or imagine our partner with someone else, and sometimes the fear and the pain of that can overcome any kind of eroticism. You know, and that's just like. You know, it's impossible to derive pleasure because there's just so much pain there. But if there isn't too much pain, I would say it's a little bit like eating hot peppers. You know, there's a threshold where you can't taste the food anymore, you can't enjoy anything, you're just in pain because that pepper is too hot. But if you have great food and a little bit of spice, it might not take away from the rest of the food, it might actually add. So yeah, sexualizing our partners through the third person gaze is one aspect of that.
Speaker 2:Another aspect of that is the taboo quality of non-monogamy, and there is a lot of research. One of my favorite researchers in that matter is Justin Lehmuller. He wrote a book called Tell Me what you Want. It's a very big survey of Americans' sexual fantasies, and one of the main fantasies that he found is non-monogamy. A lot of people they are monogamous but they fantasize about sex with others, and another fantasy that's high on the list is things that are prohibited, and non-monogamy is this, you know kind of you know dangerous prohibited thing in the eyes of the world. So the idea of watching your partner with someone else has this edge to it. It's got this mischievous like, wow, we're sharing a secret, we're doing something outside the norm, outside the rules, and that is very erotic in itself.
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 2:I mean, I think so.
Speaker 1:But, it's good for my listeners who may not think so, to get it. And I think it's interesting because I think I've stumbled in my own life because there are some people in the polyamorous world and the non-monogamous world who at least claim to just always feel compersion, and a lot of people like to say I just don't get jealous, I never get jealous, and I have a hard time understanding that. As you know, I feel like for the most part, all of the human emotions move through all of us right, and for me, I think where things can go wrong with compersion is I can feel that, but if I'm not in a secure relationship then it very quickly goes from I'm enjoying this to I'm afraid. Can compersion exist truly in a non-secure relationship or a relationship where there isn't safety as the foundation?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that some flavors of compersion could exist, like erotic compersion. I think that you could have just met a partner you know a month ago and now you're swinging together and you have erotic experiences with others and you know like there might not be a ton of security in that relationship, but there also is not a ton of threat, because you don't have too much to lose. I think that security has to be talked about in the context of how much threat is there as well. So that is an example of how compersion could exist in a relationship where there isn't a strong foundation of security. That said, in general security is everything you know when it comes to compersion.
Speaker 2:Emotional security at the relational level, feeling like your relational cup is full and there's plenty of love and attention and time and admiration and respect to go around, because if there isn't a lot of that, then of course compersion is going to be really hard. And then also individual security. You know how do I feel about myself? Do I feel connected to a deep well of inner safety, inner sense of self, inner stability, which might not prevent me from feeling jealousy, but it takes off the edge, it takes off the oh my gosh. This other relationship is threatening my whole survival or my whole sense of self. So yes, I mean, the more you can put in the bank account of your individual security and your relational security, the more compersion will have a chance to emerge.
Speaker 2:I just want to comment on what you said earlier, that you've met people who claim to never feel jealousy, and my interpretation of that is that they might not have been in a context yet that triggered their jealousy. For example, some people might be in a relationship where they know their partner is kind of dependent on them or will never leave them, and maybe they actually feel like their partner is a little bit too clingy and they really want that partner to go out and divert some of their energy towards somebody else, and so in that kind of circumstance they might only feel compulsion, but that doesn't mean they will not one day be in a different context where something happens to really trigger their jealousy, like I think we're all wired for it. It just depends on when.
Speaker 1:I have to tell you I feel embarrassed almost to admit this, but the reality is, if I were with a partner now I'm talking about like a core relationship, someone that I had decided I'm in love with you, I'm investing with you and I'm growing the relationship that I was really into right, and they were to say to me that they just never got jealous about, they would never get jealous or they never felt jealousy within our relationship, I'd kind of question, I would question their like the intensity of their feelings for me, and I'm not sure if that's a good thing or a bad thing, but I know that sometimes for me, when I feel that jealousy come up, even though I know it's my work for the most part, unless it's a red flag for my relationship.
Speaker 1:Sometimes that's tricky to know the difference, but for me I'm like oh, I guess I really like this person and then I work on the jealousy, but for me it's like one of those indicators like, oh, I'm really kind of like interested in this person. What do you think about that?
Speaker 2:Well, I think that's really interesting from the perspective of evolutionary psychology and also our socialization around jealousy. Because from the perspective of evolution, jealousy has evolved as a protection mechanism for valued relationships and jealousy has been observed in infants as young as six months old. When they witness their mom or their primary caregiver diverting their attention towards another baby, they show real behavioral signs of jealousy. So it's a very natural thing to want to protect a valued relationship, and the more important and valued that relationship is, the more we're going to have that instinct of protecting it from being diverted towards someone else. But there's also a social aspect where we watch TV and we listen to music that tells us that jealousy equals love. So I think there's, of course, a relationship between those two things. But I think, in terms of how we are conditioned socially, to think about love as inseparable from jealousy is kind of biased and not necessarily always true.
Speaker 1:So your answer is a little bit of a non-answer. No, you're basically like it could be now and I mean I think that's how I feel about it Like there is the question of, like, what level of sort of toxicity is in that concept? Right, and that's just work we always have to do because we have been conditioned and especially again going back to being a woman. We've been conditioned. Think about the fact that really, my mom would have been one of the first women in the history of my lineage to have the option of getting a job and not having to battle for a man to support her financially. Right, Men were women's income, Men were women's job. We didn't have bank accounts, we couldn't support ourselves. So that's sort of written in my DNA, which means jealousy is written at a sort of unhealthy level in my DNA.
Speaker 2:Yeah.
Speaker 1:But I think that's where things kind of are interesting, Like I'll feel that jealousy and then I'll be like oh, I'm like, yeah, I am into you, and then it can sometimes turn into arousal. It does turn into arousal in good situations it does turn into arousal in good situations.
Speaker 2:Again, I don't think jealousy is a bad thing. I'll just say that on the record as a compersion researcher don't demonize jealousy.
Speaker 1:How closely related do you think jealousy and compersion are related to one another? It seems like, at least in this conversation and in my mind, they're just like kind of rubbing elbows with each other a little bit, maybe holding pinky fingers a little bit Not the full hand, but pinky fingers.
Speaker 2:Well, in my research I had a participant say something like I'm going to paraphrase, but she said that when she witnesses her partner engaging with someone else, she feels like there is two doors.
Speaker 2:There is the door of interpreting this event as a negative event, and that will create more of a jealous reaction.
Speaker 2:And there is the door of interpreting that event as a positive event, and that is compersion. And there's something called in psychology the balance of emotions. And that means that sometimes a certain state of physical arousal I'm not saying arousal like in a sexual way, but like a physical reaction, like stress, for example when you're feeling stressed, you might interpret that negatively and say like, oh, I'm just so anxious and I'm worried. Or you can interpret a reaction of stress as I'm so excited, something really cool is about to happen, and you can have those two interpretations based on the same stimuli or the same situation. So I think jealousy and compersion can, you know like, have that same pattern where, depending on what meaning you assign to that stimuli like your partner being interested in someone else or having sex with someone else or falling in love with someone else if you make it mean something bad, it will create more jealousy, and if you make it mean something, good it you teach yourself compersion.
Speaker 1:Can you teach yourself compersion over jealousy? And I know those aren't necessarily the two of the same things, right Like compersion can just be learning compersion.
Speaker 1:Is that something you can learn? And then there's also, because I have definitely been in that moment, of course, typically, you know, I was going to say I've been in that moment where you have to choose door number one conversion, or door number two jealousy. And I was going to say, oh yeah, like in sexual situations where you know I've had a partner and we've had a threesome or whatever. Or you know, when I've been in open relationships and they're going out on a date, but even in a monogamous relationship, I would argue there are moments when you're out with your partner and somebody walks in.
Speaker 1:They don't know that this person is your partner and they start talking to your partner and you can tell that they're like my partner is sexy and I can choose to either be I'm being jealous why are you talking to this other woman? She clearly is hitting on you or I can sit and watch and go damn right, my partner is sexy, go ahead and hit on them. I'm going home with them tonight and like enjoy. And then the joy of seeing them feel good because they're getting some attention.
Speaker 1:I mean that exists within monogamous relationships, the choice you can either tell your partner now you're with me, you don't get to look at any other woman, you don't get to let them you know in the case that it's a man or woman, whatever any other person you don't get to. You know, be flirted with, or you can like be like all right, we're going to be out in the world, these things are going to happen and, of course, people are going to hit on you. You're gorgeous, that's great.
Speaker 1:As long as we adhere to our relationship rules.
Speaker 2:Right. And that brings us back to the theme of security. If you feel secure in your relationship and you know that you trust each other to adhere to your relationship rules and agreements, you're a lot more at ease with that situation because you're not going to realistically fear that this person is just going to run off to this other person and cheat on you. And it's the same thing with inner security. If you feel good about yourself, if you feel like, well, yeah, she's really pretty, but I'm pretty too, and you know I'm not in the space of lack and negative comparison and being down on myself, then it's going to be a lot more likely for me to experience that compersion. So that meaning making like that, whether or not I'm going to go through that door number one or door number two, depends on a lot of these factors.
Speaker 2:So there's security and I'll also add the influence of community, and what is your culture and what kind of people do you hang out with? And in a non-monogamous situation, having a non-monogamous community that models compersion, is going to go a long way in helping you cultivate compersion and sort of you know like, allow it to emerge within yourself, because we are imitators as humans, we learn so much from what we observe in other people. So if we observe and witness other people practicing compersion and, you know, actualizing those kinds of emotional reactions and behaviors, we're more likely to do that ourselves. But if we're in a very conservative environment where it would be looked down upon to even be okay with your partner flirting with someone else, then you might feel like, well, I have a duty to make it not okay, because no one else would think it's okay and no one else would think I'm okay with letting this happen. The social environment is so powerful in that equation.
Speaker 1:So then, in my question to you, about which I have taken us on a long path around, to the.
Speaker 1:Can you learn compersion? Can you learn to choose that door? It sounds like the answer is yes, but there are things that have to be at play first. You have to do your own self work, building security within yourself. I'm going to say and I'm not a doctor, but I would imagine for most of that, that is the place where most of us need to do work. You know, I am constantly surprised and heartbroken, not only my own discovery with myself, but the things I hear from the people around me and how difficult self-love and self-worth is to build up and maintain. And when you enter into a relationship with someone else and yours is rocky and shaky, and yours is rocky and shaky, oh Lord, I know personally, things go wonky. But so, building the self-worth, having the security within the relationship, and then being surrounded by a community that supports your goal, to be more compulsive Is that a word? Is that right? Compulsive? Check that out, look at me. Learning a new language and to be able to choose that path more, so those sound like three very foundational pieces.
Speaker 2:Exactly, yeah, you nailed it, and that is, you know, the biggest part of my book is actually laying down that roadmap, you know, from all the individual factors that will promote compersion, to the relational factors that promote compersion, to the social factors. So, to me, learning to cultivate compersion is not just one thing Like you can't just invoke compersion from you know, like sitting in your room and being like, oh, I just want to have compersion, I just want to have compersion, I just want to have compersion from you know, like sitting in your room and being like, oh, I just want to have compersion, I just want to have compersion, I just want to have compersion Like that?
Speaker 1:Did you do that on purpose? Did you know that there were fireworks behind you when you just did that?
Speaker 2:No, I did not notice.
Speaker 1:On your screen.
Speaker 1:That is hilarious If you haven't got yeah, you did that and and there were fireworks that just flew behind you. If you are not on my YouTube channel, you're missing out. It's like magic Compersion, compersion, compersion. Be honest. But you're feeling pretty fucking good about yourself. You're like I'm cute, I'm smart, you know, I've got my mojo going on. You've got a pretty, a pretty solid relationship. Um, you got the community all around you. That is like a compersion and I do.
Speaker 1:I've been around those folks. I'm just saying like I'm not 100 there. I'm still playing with where I'm at, but in my own ability, not the existence of compersion, but I've definitely been in communities that are very much like we love. You know, we feel good about it all and I'm like, wow, more evolved than me. And then you're in it. You're like in it and you and your partner have decided we're going to like move forward, we're going to do this thing. We're going to really work on getting off, on each other getting off. What are some active things you can do in the moment? Whether it's a sexual situation, actually, let's break it down. Let's start with non-sexual situations. Your partner is going to go out on a date, or your partner has met someone and you're like choose door A or B and your hands on both knobs, and you know what are some things you can do in the moment to help your journey.
Speaker 2:Well, one thing that you can do is get more information about what is your partner experiencing. That's good for them, because compersion is based on positive empathy, and if you feel like you don't have access to the full picture of why is this thing bringing them pleasure, well, you might not be able to experience compersion, because empathy requires a level of exposure and that can look like asking them you know, like wow, like what does this relationship mean to you? Why is it great, why is it bringing you joy? And that might also help you feel connected to your partner and kind of help you get away from the idea that it's either or either this person or you which is so wired into us. Another thing that you can do is to meet that person and learn more about them.
Speaker 2:If your partner is going to be dating someone else in any kind of significant way, then the way that you perceive them and relate to them is going to be hugely impactful in whether or not you feel that sense of support and togetherness from your heart.
Speaker 2:That is actually one of the biggest factors in this ecosystem of factors that promote compersion is your rapport with your metamor. A metamor is your partner's other partner. Metamor is your partner's other partner. So if you like them, if you trust them to have aligned intentions with you and your partners, if you feel like this person is actually bringing something of value to your relationship ecosystem rather than taking away, it's going to be a lot easier to experience conversion rather than if you feel like I can't trust them, they're not a good person, they're not a good influence on my partner, et cetera. So the more information you have and the more you can find a way to not idealize this person as just like this, awful person who's like better than you and has everything better and easier in life, but actually humanize them, that is powerful.
Speaker 1:That makes sense, because I think it makes sense that one of the first things you do is you think, oh, this person is giving my person something I can't, does that mean they are more? Do you think, oh, this person is giving my person something I can't, does that mean they are more?
Speaker 1:whatever, it is more fun sexier, more intelligent, more grounded, whatever it is you feel like you lack, or isn't your strength, right? And then meeting someone and being like, yeah, they are more grounded than me, but they're a little bit more boring than I am. You know, they're just like me. They have the places where they shine and they have the places where they don't, and that's sort of the beauty of the situation, right.
Speaker 2:Exactly, exactly. And another thing you can do in the moment is if you are feeling a lot of insecurity or anxiety or jealousy and you're feeling dysregulated meaning like you feel like you're in a very activated nervous system state, like maybe you're in fight or flight or you're freezing or you're just feeling like besides yourself then you can use techniques of self-regulation or co-regulation. Self-regulation is when you do something that helps you come back to a state of present moment, awareness and nervous system stability. Some people go for a run and that helps them feel more normal, more with themselves. Some people like to journal or do breath work or meditate.
Speaker 2:There's a lot of different things that people can do to just feel like I'm in a regulated nervous system state again, and then co-regulation is when you do that with a partner, and then co-regulation is when you do that with a partner. Some people they like to ask for a hug or ask for reassurance in a verbal way, like ask for their partner to reassure them that they're not leaving, that they're not choosing this other person over them. So most non-monogamous people that I know have a very explicit agreement around that that it's always okay to ask for reassurance, and I think that's really smart, you know, to always have this person available to you to just like say like yes, I still love you. Your place in my life is not threatened.
Speaker 1:I think that's so important to have a partner who is okay with reassuring you, no matter how much you need it. I'm curious and then I want to get back to how you choose door number one or two when you're in bed with more than just your partner. But I'm curious what role attachment styles play in the ability to experience compersion. I am a more anxiously attached person really working hard to get secure, but I'm aware of my. I'm very aware of my emotional regulation when I'm not regulated and I need to bring myself down.
Speaker 1:I happen to be lucky that I've spent sort of a lifetime. I have an anxiety disorder, so I've got 20 to 30 years of having gained tools, learned how to regulate myself, a lot of things that other people may not. Some people may not even know when they're not regulated. They don't even know what that means, much less how to like bring it back. But so I'm curious do you know from the studies you've done, do you? Is there an attachment style that tends to experience compersion, more or less?
Speaker 2:Unfortunately, I have not studied that empirically and there was a decision point in my research like will I give people the attachment questionnaire to determine what their attachment style is, and I decided against it because that questionnaire was based on monogamous assumptions.
Speaker 2:All of the research we have in the field of psychology around attachment so far is always based on monogamous relationships, so there wasn't really to me a way that I could conduct this research with full integrity, but I hope this will change in the future. I know that there are some studies that study attachment style in relation to non-monogamy, or tendency to participate in non-monogamy, and what they're finding is that Oftentimes people who are avoidant have more interest in non-monogamy, but once they are in a non-monogamous situation they don't necessarily do super well, Because non-monogamy requires a lot of communication and a lot of emotional presence and investment and you can't avoid things when you're dealing with multiple partners. You know you can't avoid things when you're dealing with multiple partners. So it seems like people who are either secure or anxious have a better shot at non-monogamy in general, which would lead me to hypothesize it's just a hypothesis, it's not a research finding, but hypothesize that they also would have a better shot at compersion in general.
Speaker 1:They also would have a better shot at compersion in general. It would make sense to me in the sense that, again, as someone who experiences anxiousness more than the average human, I know what it feels like and if you've done any work, you've had to learn how to stabilize it right. And so when compersion and anxiousness that comes up with jealousy arise you would be more aware of. Oh, I'm feeling this thing.
Speaker 1:I know, how to regulate. I'm going to go run, walk, you know whatever it is, you know all the breathing exercises, and so you might have those tools more at hand, whereas with an avoidant, I don't even, I don't even, I don't even understand avoidance. To be honest with you where they have more of a difficulty with the connection and communication and stuff like that. I could see that being very difficult.
Speaker 1:But that was just an interesting question that popped into my mind. So now we're in the bedroom, let's go to the bedroom. Okay, we're in the bedroom Because I think a lot of people, and even people who would call themselves monogamish swingers, for instance, they want to go and they want to swing and have sex with other people, but they pretty much many of them are like well, I'm monogamous but I swing right.
Speaker 2:But a lot of people want Monogamously. You would call that like romantically monogamous, but sexually not monogamous, not so much, not so much.
Speaker 1:Yeah, exactly, I agree 100%.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and but I mean a lot of people, even people who tend more towards conventional, want that to spice it up with, like you know, a third. You're in the bedroom and you've made this decision, and especially if you're in more of a heteronormative relationship and your third person and, let's be honest, it typically starts in more heteronormative relationship and your third person and, let's be honest, it typically starts in more heteronormative situations with two women and a man. So the women are having to figure out how to feel okay with you know that situation.
Speaker 1:But regardless, what can you do in the moment to have the full experience, to enjoy the sexiness of it? Because I can remember when I first started having threesomes, like I'm finally here, we're having a threesome, but then it gets spicy and you know I start to get scared and jealous and I'm like no, no, no, no, no. I want, I want to have the experience. So I know I've gone through that. My listeners definitely have. Do you have an advice Like how, in that moment, to get the most out of it, to juice it for all the good stuff, even if you decide afterwards you are never doing it again? How can you choose to enjoy the compersion, part of that watching your partner, whatever, like rail another person and enjoy it, rather than freak out and like have it be a miserable memory?
Speaker 2:Well, I will put a caveat before I address your question full on. The caveat is that for compersion to even be accessible and you know something that you should aspire to there has to be healthy agreements that are respected by everyone. If you feel that, oh my gosh, you've made agreements and they're not being respected and your boundaries are not being respected, I wouldn't try to push yourself to feel compersion in that moment. I would just, you know, stop it, stop what you're doing, and just say like, stop it, stop what you're doing and just say like, hey, boundaries have been established and they're not being respected. Let's realign. So that's my caveat, and I would say that's true not only of sexual situations, but also just dating situations as well. You know you have to have respect and integrity before you even try to shoot for compersion. It's just foundational.
Speaker 2:That said, if there is respect and integrity and agreements are being respected and you start feeling like maybe you're getting into your head and you're starting to feel like, oh my gosh, is my partner having more fun with this other person than they are with me, something that you can do is try to see if you can redirect your attention from yourself to them, and that is an interesting practice and empathy is to actually like take out your, your attention from your own head and put it on them and wonder like, what are they feeling right now? What is my partner feeling right now, what is this third person feeling right now, and see if you can play with that and see if you can embody that and just like tune into that, as if you were to tune into a radio station and you know, right now you might be tuning into that radio station of insecurity, but it's not the only radio station around Maybe you can play with. Can I just like shift the dial and be like oh, what does you know? Like Joe's radio station? Look like right now, what's playing? What's playing?
Speaker 1:See if you can do that. That makes sense to me. Me and and I love that you brought up embodying what they're feeling, actually try to, in a sense, like feel what it's like to be in their skin at the moment. That's an interesting concept to me. That could be fun and exciting, and and then maybe you get through that moment and then you're like, yeah, I do want to have another threesome after this. That was great.
Speaker 2:And another thing I'll say is maybe you can wonder like what is it that I want in this moment? Are some of my sexual desires not getting met, and can I voice them? Because one sure way to end up frustrated in a threesome or any sexual situation is to not speak out about what you desire. So that's another way to maybe shift the mood is to say, like all right, this is all great, but how about somebody you know like you does this thing that I crave? How would that sound and see how that shifts things for you.
Speaker 1:Yeah, well, there you go, guys. That's how to, and I love that you did start out by saying look, don't push through something where your boundaries are being violated, something where your boundaries are being violated, and I think that what can be tricky sometimes, in all of the situations are and I imagine this is a learning curve- but, where you start to feel jealous, or you start to feel anxious and then in your mind you're like, oh, but I'm trying to be more compulsive, but that anxious, anxiousness and the jealousy is actually your mind trying to tell you that something's being violated.
Speaker 1:This doesn't feel good and I don't. This isn't safe for me, and so knowing the difference can be difficult, right, especially if you're a people pleaser or you're someone who wants to make everybody happy. So maybe let's sum this up with, because I think that's the concern a lot of people get into how do I know when I'm genuinely just being overly jealous or fearful or possessive, or when these boundaries are, you know, actually being broken? You know? How do you know?
Speaker 2:Well, that's where you have to really use the clarity of your mind to assess a situation. You have to really use the clarity of your mind to assess a situation and sometimes you have to have a coach or a therapist or a good friend to help you you know, have another set of eyes or another brain and help you evaluate, like, what is actually happening here. So, yeah, you have to figure it out, you have to figure out where your boundaries are. And I will add that compersion should not be a mandate. It's not.
Speaker 2:You know, feeling happy for your partner's experience can be framed as a bonus, necessarily, like this orthodoxy of like, if you don't do that, if you don't feel that you're not doing it right, I think that's a big pitfall in non monogamous circles where sometimes, like, there's this philosophy of like, well, if you're not feeling compersion, you're not poly enough. And I just want to push back against that and say like, yes, compersion is wonderful and I think we can all cultivate an attitude of compersion, but we shouldn't have this be like another form of toxic positivity where if you're feeling anything but happy and you know fun all the time, then there's something wrong with you.
Speaker 1:Thank you for that. Yeah, that helps wrap it up. I think it's a great goal to have just this other experience accessible to you as an option, but you know, you don't have to feel that way. You don't have to be excited or turned on by your. You don't have to be like me, by your partner in those situations. What would you like to leave my listeners with when it comes to compersion? What do you think are kind of the most important points for them to take away from this conversation?
Speaker 2:Well, first, compersion is contextual. It emerges when there is a fertile terrain for it. It doesn't just emerge out of nowhere because you want it. You have to cultivate individual factors, relational factors and social factors for it to have a chance to bloom. So that's number one Compersion is contextual. So that's number one, compersion is contextual.
Speaker 2:Number two I would say that remember that compersion and jealousy can, and often do, coexist. You might be feeling jealous, but that doesn't mean you can't also cultivate compersion. They can coexist and you can also have an attitude or a behavior or an ethic of compersion in the way that you treat other people, even when you're not feeling compersion emotionally. That's a really important distinction to make. And number three I will reiterate that not feeling compersion does not make you a bad person or a bad non-monogamous person. It's again in context. No one is only jealous or only compersive. And that's something very fluid and very dynamic and I would encourage your listeners to always investigate like why am I feeling jealous, why am I feeling compersion? What's happening with me? Make it a study and try to remove some of the shame from it and really prioritize how are we treating each other? That, to me, that's the most important question. You know it's more important than are we feeling compersion or not feeling compersion?
Speaker 1:Perfect, and I want to challenge my listeners to leave this conversation and look for where compersion can show up in your life in all different areas whether it is with your friends, co-workers, or even if you're monogamous and being able to find joy and people thinking you're with someone hot right, because I do think it can remove fear and make it easier to connect with and support other people in all areas of life.
Speaker 1:Who doesn't want to do that? Who doesn't want to be the hype girl in everybody's life? Right, or at least a little bit yeah.
Speaker 2:Well, we all want a hype girl. We all want someone sharing our joy and our success. So it is really a beautiful gift that we can give other people to show up like that.
Speaker 1:Yes, now can you tell my listeners where they can find you? If, especially right now, if this is something that you're really confronted with in your life and you want to talk to somebody, this is the person. So can you tell people where they can get your book and where, how they can get in touch with you and learn more from you? Thank you.
Speaker 2:So people can go to whatiscompersioncom, and there's going to be a link to my book front and center. They can also get it on Amazon or Barnes and Noble or Roman and Littlefield, which is the publisher's website, and people can find me at whatiscompersioncom or marietouincom to learn more about my coaching. I love helping people really figure out their specific context and how to make their relationships flourish. At any stage of the relationship whether it's dating and trying to, you know, figure out your own dating life, or 20 years down the line you're with someone and you're opening up the relationship or you're facing some conflict I do it all. I'm really interested in people and helping folks create a really vibrant love life. So I do a free 30-minute exploratory session for anyone who's interested, so don't hesitate to book one of those.
Speaker 1:All right, and so, listeners, if you have questions about this conversation, about compersion or anything having to do with it, I'm going to encourage you to a head over to my YouTube channel at talk sex with Annette and drop a comment below the video. I just it's a great way to organize your comments and questions. However, also feel free to scroll down. I have a speak pipe link below. You can send me a voicemail or you can email me at Annette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom. Love to answer your questions, and so, marie, thank you so much for coming and talking to me and my listeners about conversion it was my pleasure.
Speaker 2:Annette, Thank you so much for having me. It was fun.
Speaker 1:And to my listeners until next time I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers Ring loop.