Using the sexual flow state to find love: A New Approach to Dating

There’s an epidemic of loneliness plaguing people of all ages and genders. App dating is dragging single folks down. What if there was a different approach to dating that could minimize the amount of time you spend dating the wrong folks. Dr. Massimo Fantana joins me for a fascinating conversation on how people can reconnect with their sexual selves and use their natural sexual flow state to manifest the partner of their dreams. In this episode we act out a dinner date scenario that shows viewers and listeners exactly how to go about their next date for optimal results. The Dr. Fantana also leaves listeners and viewers with numerous activities that can use in their dating and love life to help them find their next great love. 

In this episode you’ll learn:

• What your sexual self is
•  How to identify it
•  what a sexual flow state is
•  How to use it to  manifest the life you want

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Chapters

• 1:07 Manifesting Dream Relationships Through Sexual Flow
• 7:30 Exploring Authentic Sexual Self-Image
• 20:18 Navigating Relationship Dynamics Through Open Communication
• 29:20 Building Trust and Security Through Communication
• 41:31 Navigating Dating Conversations and Expectations
• 51:42 Embracing Authentic Self in Relationships
• 55:59 Exploring Emotional Barometers and Authenticity
• 1:07:53 Engaging With TalkSexWithAnnette

Transcript

Speaker 1: 1:07

Do the sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room.

Speaker 1: 1:24

Today's locker room talk and shots. Topic is how to manifest your dream relationship, understanding the sexual flow state and the power of sexual energy. Now, if you've been tuning in for any time to my masturbation Monday series this year, you know that I have been attempting to use my sexual energy, or what I like to call the power of my pussy, to manifest the life of my dreams and, hopefully, eventually, the relationship of my dreams. Now, if you are skeptical, you're not alone, but my guest today is going to clarify what I think I've been trying to do, but in a much more professional way than I have been doing, much more professional way than I have been doing. I also want to speak to the fact that I know there is an epidemic of loneliness that people are struggling with. I think people are struggling more now than ever to find relationship and be in relationship with people that they're compatible with and can have a fulfilling life with, and the way in which we've been going about dating is clearly problematic. Apps aren't getting us there, so hopefully, by the end of today, we will have another way to look at finding partnership and manifesting the lives that we are hoping to have.

Speaker 1: 2:46

My guest is sexologist and psychological therapist, dr Massimo Fontana, a PhD in human sexuality who specializes in the study and application of sexual flow states to enhance overall life fulfillment. His work explores the interplay between our sexual self-image and the broader self-perception. Dr Fontana advocates for a love-infused approach to personal development and wellbeing, emphasizing that love flows through everything. I would love it, dr Fontana, if you would take a moment to tell my listeners a little bit more about you.

Speaker 2: 3:24

Well, where do I start? So I have Italian parents and I was born in South Africa. I did a big portion of my sexology training in South Africa and I was very, very fortunate to fall into it, because I actually wanted to be a maxillofacial surgeon. I didn't want to be a sexologist and psychologist sexologist and psychologist. But, following this whole idea of flow states, life had a different plan for me and it's just something I've never looked back on. It's just something that you know, one step after the next after the next, just fallen into beautiful moments where I've just been very lucky to have immense experience with clients where I think a lot of people would pay for that experience. So that's where it's brought me today. I live in Spain. I used to live in London. I was there for 15 years. I did another big portion of my studying there and came here because I did follow my sexual flow state and I did find love and that was one of the main reasons that brought me here. That's where I am today.

Speaker 1: 4:39

That's the proof he found love. We can too, folks. So folks, I want you to stay to the end, because by the end of this podcast, if you have been struggling or hoping to manifest a relationship, but really manifest the life of your dreams in all different areas, hopefully, if I do my job correctly, by the end of this episode you are going to have a new way to look at how to do that and how to approach it. You're going to be able to try something new instead of continuing to do the same thing again and again and getting the results that are the same and not getting you where you want to again and again. No pressure, dr Butt, that's what you're going to do for all of us, right? All right, well, so let's get ready to talk about sexual flow states. Cheers. I think where we need to start is talking about what this concept of the sexual flow state is.

Speaker 2: 6:01

So for me, a sexual flow state is a moment where the boundaries between self and the other time and space dissolve into a very deep experience of being. I know it sounds very philosophical, but it's this moment where the self escapes the endless chatter of the mind. It's that moment that escapes the anxiety of being in the world and facing life. So when I think about sexual flow state, you're not just engaging in the physical act of sex but, most importantly, you're completely surrendered and immersed in the experience. Most importantly, you're completely surrendered and immersed in the experience.

Speaker 2: 6:33

It's here that you can surpass dualities of the roles we adopt in the bedroom and in life, and I think a lot of us fall victim to these kinds of roles that we have in the bedroom. So it's performer or receiver, or victim, persecutor, and in essence, we just become us in totality, and we do it unapologetically, so we don't need to conform to particular roles and ideologies or narratives. So for me, what's really important here is that when you're in flow, there's no doing, it's only being. So it's this feeling of total liberation where, basically, you embody your truth, and it's that moment where you can meet your authentic self. And what's really beautiful about this moment is that it's also a moment where we are able to actually share with ease that authentic self with somebody else somebody else.

Speaker 1: 7:30

It sounds like the way you're describing it is that a sexual flow state is just being your full self, without separating your sexual self and sexual energy from the rest of who you are.

Speaker 1: 7:41

I feel like most all of us are conditioned to hide. You know, sex, anything, sexual energy, all of that is kind of shamed. It's something for the bedroom, it's something you just do at night before you go to bed to make babies or like to whatever with your husband, wife, partner. My belief is that our sexual self, our sexual energy, is integrated into every other part of who we are and where a lot of our suffering comes from whether that's anxiety, depression, feeling isolated from other people is from being separated from that part of ourselves and not and and and having it disintegrated from the rest of ourselves. It sounds to me and correct me if I'm wrong or maybe hone in what I'm saying is what you're suggesting is the sexual flow state is when we bring that all back together and that's how we're acting with the other people in our lives and in every area of our life.

Speaker 2: 8:49

Absolutely. I think your explanation is beautiful, but I think also, something that I notice a lot in society is that we dedicate so much time to these other pillars, and what I mean by that is that my practice is founded on six pillars, and it's your psychology, emotionality, physicality, spirituality, relationality and your finances. And the funny thing is is that most people avoid your relational side or the sexual side of life, and they invest their energies everywhere else and there's a disconnect because we are our sexual selves in every single moment that we encounter in life and unless you've actually come to terms with who and what that is, knowing how to relate that to other people, but then equally with yourself, there's a massive deficit there.

Speaker 1: 9:43

I agree. I feel like that's what I tried to explain to people. People are always asking me. I feel like that's what I tried to explain to people. People are always asking me and why do you have? Why does everything you talk about have to have to do with sex? Why is it all about sex? And I'm like, because sex is everything. It's in Our sexual selves, are in everything, and when you are disassociated from that part of yourself or that part of yourself is hiding in a shameful ball somewhere else and we can't even talk about it.

Speaker 2: 10:15

You are going to be lacking in every other area of your life.

Speaker 1: 10:16

Absolutely, absolutely, it literally will infiltrate itself into everything. I would like to say to y'all a doctor, just somebody with a way more impressive, uh, psychological background, educational background than me, just backed me up so just saying, if y'all needed someone else to agree with me, that just happened. So that's why I always talk about it and it's become the passion in my life, sharing information about how to reconnect and use sexual energy to manifest the life you want. Moving forward. What are barriers people have? What do you think one of the biggest barrier that people have to integrating their sexual selves or even know? I think a lot of people don't even know who their sexual self is honestly. So can you talk a little bit about that and how people can start to at least recognize that part of themselves? Because if you can't recognize it, you certainly can't integrate it correct?

Speaker 2: 11:26

Absolutely. I think this is where I like this term sexual self-image, because when I speak of sexual self-image, it's the reflection of your relationship with your own being in the world, and what that means is that it's shaped by this ongoing tension between your true self and the self that is shaped by societal expectations and cultural norms. This can also be shaped by you know, simply put people's perceptions of you as well, and the thing that we need to remember is is that this is not about how you perceive your body or your desirability, but it's about this deepest sense of self that you carry with you all the time. So it's this narrative that you can construct about who you are in the space of intimacy that's very, very, very important to actually work on.

Speaker 2: 12:19

And something I deeply believe in is is that all of us carry this generalized angst through life, and what this means to me is generalized angst through life, and what this means to me is that we have a challenge to reconcile the difference between who you truly are and who you believe you need to be in order to receive love or be desired. And I think if people can get their heads around that concept, they will naturally start manifesting what they want in life. Because most of us fall into this very dangerous position where we're trying to design ourselves, alter this sexual self-image or even just self-image to appease what other people want, rather than actually stepping into our authenticity. And I think, if I was going to sort of reduce, be very reductionist about sexual self-image, it's really about peeling away the layers of our inauthenticity and coming to terms with our naked self, both literally, physically and internally and metaphorically.

Speaker 1: 13:30

Absolutely. I think something people don't realize is how many layers of inauthenticity, from the moment we're born, we start to pile on top, of, wrap ourselves in, really, because from the time we're born we're told it's not okay if you do that, as we're acting, naturally right, or you can't talk about that, or you have to act this way to be good. You must be these things to be good, you must be these things to be desirable, desirable, right. You must be these things to be successful. And so the work is. It seems to me again always correct me if I'm wrong what you're saying is to get back to your sexual self. Your true sexual self image is just getting back to that authentic self.

Speaker 2: 14:25

It is, but I think something that's's really, really important that I do as an exercise with with a lot of the clients at least I put it across to them.

Speaker 2: 14:32

It's whether they want to do it or not. But, um, I, like the six pillars that I was talking about before, felt that it was necessary to to reconstruct my narrative that I have around all those areas, and I think once you spend time in actually doing that, do it as an exercise where you write two or three pages about what is the narrative that you want to retrain within yourself, so that you can actually start looking for the experiences outward that validate that and that is really your true self-image, or sexual self-image. Because I think, like you're describing, those layers that I think we start putting around us are imposed. What would I call it? It's it's imposed layers that that are not necessarily our own, and even if you're just thinking about it from a perspective of being able to say no, most people don't know how to say no, and that's something fascinating for me. It's like you know, how are you expected to get what you're wanting in life when you don't even have the ability to say no about something?

Speaker 1: 15:37

Let's do? Can we do a little activity so that listeners maybe can understand this better? Could we use me as an example? What is a way in which, if you and I were talking and you were helping me discover, uncover, realize my true sexual self in order to sort of find that narrative that I want to move forward in dating? Look, I am really good about like.

Speaker 1: 16:05

I talk a lot, obviously, about sexuality becoming authentic in your sexual self. My dating life has always been an absolute shit show. I mean, the reality is like, when it comes down to it, I'm in partnership. I just I don't do so well In partnership with myself. I'm doing great these days, but let's say I come to you and I'm like I want this is, you know, with all my skills, with all of my ability to understand, getting back to my authentic self, how can I use a sexual flow state to in my quest to find partnership? Can we do an exercise where you, we can demonstrate, like, what that process is of stripping away maybe the blocks to the sexual self that are keeping me from manifesting something I want?

Speaker 2: 17:55

Absolutely, I mean, I think I think the first thing that comes to mind for me is that it's understanding how your emotions play out in your body. That's number one. So that's already going to be the first thing that I think causes blockages for us in relationship with ourself or with other people. So when you're in flow, I like to find myself at a level of neutrality. I like being very neutral. I don't have to be in a position of love or joy or willingness or anything like that, but being very neutral for me means something. So that would be one of the first questions when do you feel you are most at peace in your emotional state? When you're relating to somebody else?

Speaker 1: 18:37

When I'm in a place of like, I feel like I'm knowledgeable about what's happening. Okay so like I feel very neutral and calm sitting and talking to you and doing interviews, or even when I'm sitting in talking to people out and about and we're just talking about things that I feel very passionate about. Or even when I'm sitting and talking to people out and about and we're just talking about things that I feel very passionate about. Yeah, does that make?

Speaker 2: 19:05

sense, okay, it does Okay. So let's say, for instance, there's a person that you're going on a date with Would you be bold enough to express to them what your desires are?

Speaker 1: 19:18

Abast or just upfront?

Speaker 2: 19:19

Yes, Okay, what would that question to them? Or presentation of your desire doing your body? Would you be absolutely at peace and go, my darling, this is what I'm wanting and be really, really, really at ease with yourself? Or would there be something that starts triggering a sense of maybe anxiety, a bit of closeness? Is there a craving mixed with potential disappointment?

Speaker 1: 19:49

Is there a craving mixed with potential disappointment? It depends on how much I like the person. If it's someone that I'm like, ooh, I will definitely start to feel anxiety. If it's someone that I'm like, maybe I'll be. I'm very, very calm.

Speaker 2: 20:08

It's when it's somebody that I'm like you know, so you've you've already created two different dilemmas for yourself, where you've created a potential narrative around. If I really like this person, I start changing myself and putting myself into more of an anxious state, and when we're in an anxious state, we withdraw rather than open up and step towards the person we're in an anxious state, we withdraw rather than open up and step towards the person.

Speaker 1: 20:35

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. That's exactly what I do. Like I start, um, and when I'm in relationship with somebody who I really have feelings for, when I, when I feel the love, the love, um, I will start retracting or changing, becoming smaller. If it seems to freak them out, if my full self seems to freak them out, I'll start wondering what are they thinking when they're listening to an episode of my podcast right, and so I'll start in recording, like if I were in love with somebody right now, especially if they were male I'm bi pansexual I'd be thinking about what.

Speaker 1: 21:12

they'd be thinking about how I'm talking to you, what I'm saying, whereas if it was somebody that I was kind of like, oh, I like him, but I do what I'm doing right now, which is just talk. However, the fuck I want to.

Speaker 2: 21:23

So so you have this job for yourself to bridge the two things, if that makes sense. Because if I'm on the receiving end of just that information that you've given me and the person that I'm I'm dating says to me my single, this is, this is how I feel when I'm in love, I start withdrawing, I'm, I'm destabilized, I'm all these different things. I have a very, very soft, caring, present approach to deal with something like that. That's not going to spook me out because you've given me the information about your authentic self in that moment, right.

Speaker 2: 21:56

But the problem is, I think, a lot of the time in these kind of relating situations is that we don't voice our vulnerabilities enough and actually saying this is potentially who I am or something that I'm working through and own that space. So what we create is this dilemma where the other person starts experiencing our anxiety and unconsciously they start picking this up and start going well, maybe I'm not in alignment here. I notice all these things. I don't understand why he or she is doing these things. Are they avoidant? Because now there's this whole attachment style flow in conversations again, which is another story, but we start analyzing what is actually going on on that emotional level. So for me, this is where I think most people can actually start using their emotions and breath as an indicator of what is actually going on for them at that particular point. So it's like, if you're thinking about anxiety, what is your breath doing in the anxious space?

Speaker 1: 22:54

Like it's shorter and yeah, up in my throat.

Speaker 2: 22:58

Right Tonality starts going up rather than down, There'll probably be some kind of behavioral shaking of head looking down, looking left. So the reason why I'm saying this is that if we start looking at all the different nuances of behavior that we demonstrate with all of our emotions, this is going to be an amazing sort of entry point to understand how we're relating to this person that's in front of us.

Speaker 1: 23:22

And it is interesting you brought up attachment styles, because people are so obsessed with attachment styles right now. No-transcript are the things that are going to keep me from eventually connecting with the person that I really want to be with, or is it that when I tell them, hey, when I start really liking someone, here's what I do, that I'm looking for someone that can receive that and say that's all right, like I get that. We'll work through it.

Speaker 2: 24:21

I think I think they both go hand in hand. I mean, have you ever heard of an RDB SMA conversation? Okay, so RDBbsma conversation is basically relationship status, desires, boundaries, sexual status, meaning and aftercare. And what I like about this conversation is is that this is a conversation that anybody can have at any point, whether they're in a relationship or meeting someone first off, and what that kind of conversation does is that it keeps you in flow to eventually get to the point where you're completely eliminating any potential hurt, any potential misunderstanding in communication, and that really places you in a position of power, because, let's say, you and I go on a date, right, and I meet you for the first time and I say to you look, we're going to have an RDB SMA conversation and you're going to go. What does that mean? Because more than likely, you pick up on the BDSM kind of tonality there and we're going to start on relationship status.

Speaker 2: 25:23

So what is your relationship status? Are you single? Are you partnered? Are you know when do you fall within the spectrum of your sexuality? Are you polyamorous, monogamous? We get that out of the way. If we're in alignment there, we move on to the next thing. So what are your desires. What are your desires of this encounter? What are your desires of us having a coffee together?

Speaker 1: 25:56

Oh, let's do this. Can we do this really quick? Just look, can we, can we act it out? All right, let's start with a relationship status. I am single and I think here's what I've discovered about myself this last year. I am open to non-monogamous dating, but when I start to fall in love, when love comes into play, I move more into a monogamous place. I think that's what I desire. However, I kind of like to label it monogamish, because I would love to have a partner who's open to you know, adventures that may or may not include other people, and playing and exploring together.

Speaker 2: 26:26

Amazing. I love the explanation so I can meet you on that level. But then I'd probably go one level higher and say I relate from a position of being polyamorous, but not polyamorous from the point of view that I want multiple partners. It's really the monogamy that I have with someone is very, very important and that's center stone to my relationship, or my my relating, and whoever we both decide to bring into the play, as you're saying, it's just the cherry on the top, right, right, okay. So we go on to desires. What are your desires of this interaction? And let's say, for instance it is it is our first date, we're just meeting for a coffee since it is our first date, we're just meeting for a coffee.

Speaker 1: 28:10

Yeah, I would like have interesting conversation. I'd love to flirt. If it all goes well, making out later would be cool, beautiful.

Speaker 2: 28:22

You've already set the level that I can't go past, because, let's say, for instance, I had in my mind, you know what this chemistry is on fire I would love to make love to this person right now and really kind of skip everything and jump straight to that. You have set the tone of exactly where I can go to.

Speaker 1: 28:43

Right.

Speaker 2: 28:44

Okay, boundaries, what are the boundaries in relation to this? So, if we're making out as an example, you know, a little bit heated and heavy, my boundary would be that we reevaluate this conversation again, that we can come back to this and go actually, what are you desiring in this situation and where are your limits in respect of what we're doing All?

Speaker 1: 29:10

right. So your boundary is, if we start making out and things get steamy, you want to kind of stop and reevaluate.

Speaker 2: 29:19

Where are we going from here Correct. Correct, because I could say right in the beginning that actually what I'm really looking for is a serious relationship. I want to relate to someone and build something amazingly well with them, and I know that if you're very connected with your sexuality, there's a chance that you're going to jump straight into the sexual side quite quickly because it's so much part of you. And what I'd like to do is maybe rein that in a little bit and and really get to know who this person is before we open that door.

Speaker 1: 29:47

Right. I think that I would in, as I've in all situations where I'm at right now. I would be like, yeah, we're just going to make out, and then I'm going to go and like sit with that. That's where I'd be like this was a fantastic date If the thing goes well. Then I'd be like, dang, I want to like go home, calm down and then have a hopefully have a second date. And if you set that second date up well, then that's that could go to a different level. But yeah, that's where I am right now, that's perfect.

Speaker 2: 30:18

Now, this is the part that's the shocker to the conversation and most people will say to me would you really bring this up in the first conversation? And the answer is yes, and that's your sexual status. What is your sexual status? When was the last time you got checked? When was the last time you did a full?

Speaker 1: 30:32

STI. That's what you're asking, oh what is?

Speaker 2: 30:36

what is your sexual status? When was the last time that you figured out everything and you went for your tests and you have your PDF with whatever it is. Do you know that?

Speaker 1: 30:47

Yes, yes, ps. Do you know that? Yes, yes, ps. Yes, I do know that and it was recent and I'm two thumbs up, good to go, amazing. Yeah, no, I that I and I I'm comfortable having that conversation with people and I actually um put a lot of weight on how people react when I bring that up. Perfect, Like some people will like if they get avoidant and their eyes get all shifty and stuff like that. I'm like like wherever you are like be okay with conversing about it, Right?

Speaker 2: 31:21

This is exactly why I would use something like that, because you hit it on the hand, you will see something shifting in that person's behavior. I'm very much a behaviorist. I'm always looking out for behaviors rather than what's actually said. And if there is something that you want to query, ask it. Ask the question, because you don't want to experience the regret when you have the opportunity of actually asking something. So let's say, for instance, someone says to you actually I haven't been checked, it's been a long time.

Speaker 1: 31:52

My response to something like that would be well, when we get there, I would very much like to go hand in hand with you to the STI clinic and we can go do it together. Well, that's sweet. Now see guys, see how well that conversation can go. By the way, people take note. This is a great move, like I think if someone ever said that to me, that would be a check mark in the lake, might be a keeper box.

Speaker 2: 32:17

Right, but but what I mean? Look at, looking at it from another perspective what you're actually doing there is each step of this conversation is creating safety, and and that's yeah, that's huge.

Speaker 1: 32:28

You're right that that, um, because one of the things that I have learned and I want to continue on this conversation, cause I think this is a great activity for listeners to be able to take away from this need in a relationship in the future is to feel secure.

Speaker 1: 32:53

It's like to feel secure, truly secure, with someone. It's something I've recognized that I have not ever truly had in a relationship. So my job right now is to figure out what are the things that make me feel secure. And the minute you said that kind of approach to if you're going to ask me to do something, especially medical or, you know, going to the doctor, which dysregulates me immediately as part of my own past trauma like going to the doctor, stuff like that is just nerve wracking to me. I do it, I take care of myself, but having someone that's like hey, I'm going to ask you to do this thing, but I'm happy to like plan time to do that with you or be there for you, whether it's on a call or you know, that is a trust building, a security building move from my perspective.

Speaker 2: 33:37

This gets deeper. So now it's a question of, of meaning, m for meaning, right. So what does it mean to you that we're having this date? What does it mean to you that we're connecting so well? What does it mean to you that, more than likely so well, what does it mean to you that, more than likely, I'm probably going to kiss you after this? And what does it mean to you that we're at least for my part, creating something quite interesting here?

Speaker 1: 34:02

For me, it means there's possibility. I feel a little bit of hope. I feel a little excited. I also feel like it means I am going to have to check in with myself and make sure I'm ready to be vulnerable, which is a little scary.

Speaker 2: 34:18

That leads into the next part, which is your aftercare. So we go through a beautiful evening together, we kiss, we make out. There's an intensity, there's a desire to want to be seen by both both parties. The discussion has to be about what's your aftercare, and aftercare for me is do I walk you to the train station? Do I walk you to the cab?

Speaker 2: 34:42

Um, what is your communication style in the sense of do you want me to check in with you when you're at home? Can you send me a message? So, for me personally, I I've always appreciated when someone sends me a message and lets me know when they're home safe, and I'd like to do the same thing. So there's a reciprocity there and it shows a different kind of care that that person got home okay, and what I'd really like is that you check in with me in the morning. I'd really like to receive a message from you going whatever you want to say, but it's it's checking in to see how I feel after, after yesterday. Ghosting does not, does not align with me in the slightest. So if I experienced that and this is part of my aftercare you're not going to hear from me again.

Speaker 1: 35:25

I am the same way.

Speaker 1: 35:27

I think it's really sweet after a date to check in and say are you home?

Speaker 1: 35:34

Okay, and also to be like that was wonderful and I'll check in with you tomorrow. I think the follow-up in the morning is important too, because for me and I know a lot of people aren't as in touch with their inner self, but I'm someone who, from the time I get home and I sit with it, I sleep, I wake up, I'm going to know the next morning, after I calm down, after the adrenaline comes down, how I really feel, and I assume that's what's going on with most other people. So it's nice the next morning to know that someone is still like excited. But even more than that, one of the things that I like, that people do and that I do, it's like hey, when you have a moment, if the next morning you're still into the interaction we had and wanting to see Megan figuring out a time on the calendar to put out there for the next date. It doesn't have to be the next day, it could be the next week, but just knowing that we've put something on the calendar is.

Speaker 2: 36:38

You see, this also goes back into the beginning conversation again, because, let's say, you and I get to this point in the conversation. You're highlighting your desires again. So it's your desire that, if this date goes well, this is the way that I work. I appreciate something being put in the diary. Please don't think that it's going to be a situation that I'm chasing you. But if you vocalize that it's like, yeah, okay, I can, I can deal with that, that's something that I can take on board and actually I can own a hundred percent.

Speaker 1: 37:05

Like your whole day night right there.

Speaker 2: 37:07

It can get more intense if you want it to go more intense. And I just think that this goes back to what we were saying before about the self-image, sexual self-image and this, this idea of authenticity and peeling back the layers. All of us carry trauma, it's the way it is. Are you willing, within these encounters, to actually voice your traumas? And this, once again, I'll get backlash for the saying oh, oh, but you know, it's really too soon to talk about that kind of stuff. Well, is it? Because if you're coming to me and saying to me you know, these are the things that I've struggled in life with, okay, you're giving me, you're giving me a perfect opportunity to decide whether I want to go forward or not go forward.

Speaker 1: 37:47

I think also with that, if you're going to talk about traumas, because I kind of go back and forth. I have gone on dates with people and people tend to have an easy time talking to me and will tell me all of the things, and I think if someone is sharing their traumas, at least where I am right now and it's from this place of here are the things that have happened to me. Here's how I've grown from them and I met. You know, I understand. So, for instance, if I were to share some of my stuff, which I'm very open about, on this podcast, I have an anxiety disorder that I've lived with.

Speaker 1: 38:25

I've had panic disorder throughout my life. However, comma, I have done a lot of work with it. I feel like I'm in a good place with it. I don't have panic attacks. It's very rare and it's also made me into the person I am, who is able to do the things that I am able to do and I'm very proud of that. I'm comfortable sharing that am able to do and I'm very proud of that. I'm comfortable sharing that. I think when I meet people who are on the first date, share their trauma and they're still in the place of like they're sharing it because they are still traumatized and in that very messy don't know which direction to go.

Speaker 2: 39:05

for me, that's where I'm going to like start to pull back a little bit and feel like oh, I, you know, which makes perfect sense, because my immediate sense would be, or at least asking a question how are you dealing with your mess?

Speaker 1: 39:23

Right.

Speaker 2: 39:24

If you turn around to me and say to me I'm seeing a therapist, I'm seeing a coach, I'm doing this work, whatever it is. I'm not oblivious to the things that I have to be doing.

Speaker 1: 39:33

Tick Cool. I think there's a difference in the communication style of it. There are people who and I think maybe when people get to the place where they're like, wait to talk about their trauma or don't trauma dump on the first date. I think that that's only and I think you're right Even then even then it's better to know up front than to get to the third date and someone's you realize oh, you have had all this trauma and you aren't able, you're not in a place of really dealing with it from a healthy spot. You don't have a therapist in place, you don't have your approach. You know to like, say for me, if I'm just like I have panic disorder, sometimes I freak out. You like, say for me, if I'm just like I have panic disorder, sometimes I freak out, and if I do like you need to know this and this and this, that's, I would assume, for some people, going to be a big red flag.

Speaker 2: 40:17

I mean, I would hope it would be a real red flag, but I think, but I think, using your word that you used before phrase, it's that. That's where I see it as trauma dumping. It's, it's, it's I. I am not in a position to actually work on the stuff that I'm going through, and I've come to this date with all the hope in the world that this is going to be a remedy for something that's going on in my life that, I think, is one of the biggest things to look for on dates with people correct, correct, and I think you see, like even just the way that we're speaking now, we could say that it's it's five minutes in conversation about this topic.

Speaker 2: 40:52

You would get so much information from this and be far more equipped to assess whether you actually want to go forward with the situation or not. And let's say, for instance, there's a real chemistry, but this person hasn't actually worked on this stuff. I think that's when you can be very authentic in yourself and say look, I'm being very honest here, but I'm a bit frightened that you actually haven't worked on this stuff. I would love to get to know you better. I would love to carry on with this interaction, but what I need as a requirement in a relationship that I'm in is that the person is doing the work. That is one of my absolute desires and a boundary going forward in any relationship that I'm in.

Speaker 1: 42:16

So interesting and just the simple conversation. It's not simple. I shouldn't say that as a set. For some people this kind of conversation would be incredibly difficult at so many different stops along the way. Right, but maybe a good measure when it comes to are you ready to date? Should you be going out on dates is are you ready to have this conversation?

Speaker 1: 42:46

Because I think one thing I have learned in the last 10 years of my life is like I don't want to waste time anymore, like I'm done wasting time and I'm. I have not really I have not started going on dates yet this year, but I'm thinking about it and I'm really. I find myself just thinking, oh God, the time. Like I don't want to go and waste two hours with somebody or an hour with somebody, but I'm also I feel very strongly about like I also. I'm not like if someone is like hey want to meet for coffee, I'm like about like I also am not like if someone is like hey want to meet for coffee. I'm like I also.

Speaker 1: 43:32

If I'm going to want to date, like I want to invest in it, if I'm going to spend time looking for someone, if I feel, if someone that's just like a coffee date to me, then I'm clearly not. It feels to me like I'm not that in, yeah, like it's. Why would I do that If someone's like, hey, I'd love to take you out for dinner. You know, get to know each other Well over a dinner. I guess we could have this conversation over coffee.

Speaker 2: 43:51

But you could, but I think I think even a bigger safeguard that I would look at this conversation to be is why don't you have this over a video call with a person before you even meet up with them? Because I think, I think that is going to be an amazing way of of getting this information. Um, you have your half an hour conversation with the person. You see the energy that they're bringing to that conversation. At the end of it Then you decide actually, do I really want to meet up with this person or not?

Speaker 1: 44:24

Do you feel like so this is fascinating to me because I have had people ask to meet over like a video, and I'm just like I feel like I can't assess people as well over video. Like I think you and I are used, you know, used to this kind of thing, but do you really think you can assess chemistry with someone that way, like what if they've got a bad background and you're like, oh, or you know, I don't know?

Speaker 1: 44:54

I'm genuinely asking because, yeah, it's like. I'm like, oh, this conversation with you is fascinating to me, but I don't know that. Do you think the average Joe could, or Jane could, pull it off and and communicate chemistry?

Speaker 2: 45:09

I think they could. I really think they could, but I think the things that they need to be looking out for are the nuances in the behavior. That's all. It's not necessarily what the person is saying, but it's like. You know, what is the feel that I'm experiencing from you? What am I experiencing in my body, emotionally, while we're having this conversation? There's always going to be some kind of transference. That's happening. You can be a million miles away from me and and I will still feel what is going on. So, just because the medium isn't face to face and we're actually feeling each other in the physical sense, there's still an exchange. There's still things that you're going to be noticing. I mean, I look at your paintings like there's so many different questions that I can sort of bring up from just seeing you on a screen, and I can do so because I'm also in the safety of my own home. So that's that's where I think there's the the added benefit of something like that okay, well.

Speaker 1: 46:00

so now I've got to reassess my. I'm reading everything because I'm like when someone's like, yeah, let's meet for a coffee, I'm like, ugh, I'm like you should want to take me to dinner. But yeah, I mean, this is an important conversation to have and this really would clarify a whole God. It would have saved me so much time in the past.

Speaker 2: 46:26

I think this is exactly it. It's by doing something like this. I think there's two parts to this. The first part can you actually have this conversation with yourself? That's number one. Are you going to feel triggered with all of these different words that come up just by having that conversation with yourself? That in itself is going to say to me are you ready to actually go on a date with someone? Because if you can't speak about your traumas, or you get to the trauma point, or you can't speak about your needs, what you're actually wanting in terms of aftercare, these are points that you really need to reevaluate. And if we're going back to, you know, the core of the conversation about sexual flow states if you can't answer these questions, you are not in flow. So you can't expect putting yourself in a situation with somebody else that is interested in you that you are going to be showing the best version of yourself in that situation.

Speaker 1: 47:12

Yeah, and you know what's interesting to me? One of the most sort of impactful parts of that conversation is the aftercare I hear people all the time talk about. I went on this great date and I haven't heard anything for three days and I'm just angry about it. But we don't typically just say to someone hey, if this goes well, here's what I like after a date, here's what will show me you want to move forward, or here's what I need. We expect people to just know that. And the reality is, I feel like a lot of people approach dating from there. You know, there's just a lot of gaming. There's a lot of like if I call too soon, they're going to think this about me. Or if I want a man to like me, he's got it. Men want to chase, you know, and so they're trying to figure out how to game the system to get the person they want.

Speaker 2: 48:12

Let me give you an example here. So I think part of this is also about volunteering information about you, because if I go on a date with someone, I'm going to probably at some point say to them look, I'm quite an intense communicator in the sense that I love to message, I love to feel engaged. I'm very consistent with my communication style. So if it's a case of me sending you messages, I can send you 15 messages a day. I can also FaceTime you twice a day if you really want to. It's because I truly, truly, truly want to get to know this person, and this is an intensity that you can experience from me throughout our relationship. This is not going to be a one month spiel, and then it's going to be something entirely different afterwards. What I guess, what I'm putting across, is that you'll probably get some kind of feedback to that, and the feedback, let's say maybe. Oh, you know I don't really text that much, my darling, as much as it's been a pleasure to meet you, that's not going to work for me.

Speaker 1: 49:09

Like I would be afraid, because I'm also like you, like once I have connected and I'm like all right, this is something I'm interested in. I'm a consistent communicator too, and I am a writer. I like texts, I like you know, I love that communication. For me that's like a love language. But I do think I'm a little self-conscious about communicating that with someone that I'm interested in because I'm like does it read as needy? Well, maybe, if it does, then that's not the person I need to be interacting. These are the. What I'm saying to you is these are the questions that start to come up in my mind, like, oh, if I say that's what I want, or if it dysregulates me because now I'm interacting with this person and for the first two days we texted a lot. Now, two days go by and I've heard Jack, or it's been one answer, responses. I read that as a change in communication, but I also don't communicate. Hey, this is how I communicate. If that's going to be a problem, we should probably which I think there's.

Speaker 2: 50:17

There's also a lot of information that you're also being given there, in the sense that what I find with a lot of people is is that we're we're terrified to just ask the question. It's like I've noticed a behavior change that you haven't messaged after these two days. It's not me being needy, or maybe it is needy, it's it's. It's. It's more a question of I like to feel safe with the person that I'm relating to, so I need some clarification as to what is going on for you. Right? That opens up another conversation. It's like how willing are you to present whatever's going on in your life so that I'm aware of that? Because if you say to me look, massimo, I'm working flat out from eight o'clock in the morning until 10 o'clock at night. You're only going to hear from me at 10 o'clock at night. Cool, carry on with your day.

Speaker 1: 50:58

I've said to people I noticed change in our communication, like what's going on, and and then either people will be honest and say, oh, I'm so sorry, I was working X, Y, Z, or it will be like it's not a big deal, Like I texted you yesterday. You'll get that sort of gaslighting I guess I could phrase it like that. Or what do you do with that?

Speaker 2: 51:21

You see, this for me, I think, goes back to to my sexual self image. And when you've done a lot of work peeling back those layers and you've met your authentic self and you know how you want to be met and treated, you're not going to accept shit.

Speaker 1: 51:42

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 51:43

And I think people need to be called out on that is that you know if you, if you are not receiving what you feel you're needing to receive in a relationship or an interaction, voice it, because there's a saying that goes always leave someone better off than when you met them first, and I think that is where it comes from a nice, integrous place where you're going look, this is not going to work in any relationship with you going forward. So I'm flagging this up from the kindness of my heart For me, this is not going to work.

Speaker 1: 52:08

And I think that's where a lot of people end up in a toxic cycle with somebody, because someone gives them the sign, they read it, they call it out, the person answers it in a way that's not acceptable and then they keep trying to, to, to make it work somehow Right, instead of just saying, all right, like this isn't. This isn't how I want to be in communication with the person I'm seeing, so I'm going to, I'm going to let it go.

Speaker 2: 52:39

I think this would open up a whole different conversation as well, but it's it's our relationship with endings, and I think this is this is where I think our, or most of our angst is deeply rooted, in that it's it's the fear of ending. So, you know, if you can confront that ending and go okay, you know it's had its life cycle. I have to appreciate everything I've taken from the situation If I'm looking at the relationship as how has this served me? You're far more forgiving, to the end coming.

Speaker 1: 53:08

I think one of the big things I've discovered this year, as I've sat with myself and then had experiences A, I don't think I really knew what I wanted. I knew, you know, and when I say that I think about it in my like, you know, I'm a very like creative, thinking out here person. So I had ideas about like things I wanted, but I didn't like hone in and really nail down what I wanted, what I need in connection with someone else, and where the hard no's are. And where the hard no's are. And this year I've been like, oh, I can now, you know, you start to when you sit with yourself and then you start being honest with who you really are and being proud of that.

Speaker 1: 53:59

Like I think there's a lot of shame around our authentic selves, right, like as we were having this conversation, me talking about, like the aftercare I want, like I had some shame around that and feeling like, oh, that makes me needy and it's nothing to be shameful of, it's how I am and I'm looking for someone else who wants that as well and is okay with that, and they're going to look at that and go that's fantastic, that's what I want.

Speaker 1: 54:26

It makes me feel secure too. So I think that what I hear you saying in this conversation, or what's resonating with me and again you can always correct me if I'm off base is that the process is really reconnecting with your authentic self as much as you can Like that's an ongoing, forever process. I would imagine I'm still in it and then honoring it and honoring it in relationship and in this conversation you have while you're dating, you can pretty quickly figure out, at least on some level, if the person you're sitting across from is going to be in alignment with your authentic self or honor that part of you.

Speaker 2: 55:13

I think something that's also incredibly helpful when you have these conversations with people is is identifying where you are in your emotional scale. So it's like if I'm anxious and I'm meeting you on an anxious level, my perception of the world is through anxious glasses, if that makes sense, whereas if I'm very comfortable with myself, I'm seeing the world from a very courageous place, or maybe a neutral place could be even a loving place. So the whole interaction changes just from the perspective of where I am emotionally in the situation. Right, just from the perspective of where I am emotionally in the situation. And something that I will always educate on is that it's people need to check in with themselves where they are emotionally before they have the interaction. So before I walk into a room, where am I emotionally?

Speaker 2: 56:00

Because the other person's transference or their emotional state is going to impact you, imagine for a second you go on a date, you're feeling a bit anxious, you've checked in with yourself. You feel okay, yeah, I'm, I'm anxious, I'm excited, I'm a bit concerned, whatever it is. And here you meet this person who is just beautifully grounded. It's like, all of a sudden, it's like huh, I can, I can melt into this person's safety. As an example. Just from checking in with yourself, you can see what kind of offering this person is presenting to you.

Speaker 1: 56:35

I hadn't thought about kind of using it as a measurement, a map. If you will sort of your starting point emotionally and your ending point, here's where I would say it gets a little tricky with me. Something that I've learned I will go into 99% of dates completely calm and confident. I don't know why I just do, but something I have learned is that oftentimes if I come out of that date and I'm a little anxious, I'm like I'll be like, ooh, I'm excited. I'll read it as excited about the person, when it actually could be. I'm anxious because there's something about them that's destabilizing me.

Speaker 2: 57:24

Or or it could be you could have picked up something from them that you're now carrying their anxiety, and that's where I would use that as a check-in point, because if there's a conversation afterwards, I'd say I just wanted to check in where you were emotionally. It's like, did you feel a little bit of anxiety at some point, right? So so you, basically what you're doing is is that you're calibrating your barometer. You're calibrating your emotional barometer in knowing how to read people, but then equally trust your emotions enough to go yeah, I'm very much in flow here, or this is happening, and then you can have your sort of mini contingencies to try and pull you out of something.

Speaker 1: 57:58

So my question to you is when you're in flow but then you meet someone and there's chemistry and spark, for me what I'm saying is sometimes in my body, and maybe I'm wrong, maybe there are times when that spark and stuff well it doesn't. I guess it doesn't always show up as a little bit of anxiety, but I think sometimes I confuse anxiety with spark. Is what I'm saying? Does that make sense? It does.

Speaker 2: 58:25

Absolutely. Anxiety with spark is what I'm saying. Does that?

Speaker 1: 58:27

make sense. It does Absolutely. And then so, knowing the difference between when I've got chemistry going on and I'm in flow and then, okay, I'm feeling anxiety and I'm thinking that that spark like that's, and that would be then taking me out of flow, correct?

Speaker 2: 58:42

Correct and I'll give you, I'll give you an amazingly simple exercise to do, and I think anybody listening to this can apply this. So when you're encountering any interaction, usually what do we do? We try and sort of process things in a very heady space. So we go oh, my body is doing this. I feel this. Break it down into four parts what is my head saying, what is my heart saying, what is my intuition saying and what is heart saying? What is my intuition saying and what is my sacred space saying?

Speaker 1: 59:10

That's pussy.

Speaker 2: 59:15

And if you're getting fanny flutters I learned this term the other day this morning, incredible. But if you're getting that, and it's only that, a lot of us are driven by our sacred space.

Speaker 1: 59:27

Sometimes that happens.

Speaker 2: 59:30

But I think when you're negotiating with yourself and you can honor that, that's when you can sort of start bringing it up and actually say well, am I in alignment with my intuition, am I in alignment with my heart and am I in alignment with my head? If everything is in alignment, amazing, go forward. And am I in alignment with my head, if everything is in alignment amazing?

Speaker 1: 59:47

Go for it. I like that. That's a wonderful way to kind of bring it all together and figure out where you're really at, and that is something that I'm learning. I'm a very like I can be impulsive. Believe it or not, I know it's probably hard for you to imagine.

Speaker 1: 1:00:10

It's like come on, girlfriend, rein it in, uh and I'm, I'm learning, practicing, like feeling the impulse and saying, hold, hold on a minute, let's give it a second which has changed my life immensely, but sometimes it's nice to just let her fly the impulses. Are there different measurements you can use? Or exercises, because some people are just going to get stuck at the front end of this conversation. It's like I don't even know how to know if I'm in flow, like I don't even know how to know if I'm in touch with my authentic self. That might just be a sticking point. So, when it comes to the rest, it's a non-starter. To the rest, it's a non-starter. What are some signs and activities or approaches people can use to start discovering what? That is? How they can start the journey towards identifying their sexual selves and then integrating?

Speaker 2: 1:01:04

Perfect, amazing question. I think, as a starting point, you'll find that most people will have some kind of avoidance towards their own sexuality and being with their sexual selves. So I would always say that's the starting point. Look at your week. Look at how you've created space for your self-practice. More than likely you haven't created any space for that self-practice. More than likely you haven't created any space for that self-practice. Get yourself into that Really. See what comes up for yourself.

Speaker 2: 1:01:34

Like I was saying before about peeling back the layers and meeting your naked self. Stand in front of a mirror, naked. Who do you meet? Who do you see? What's the judgment? What's holding you back? Can you bring a loving feeling into that? That gaze that you're giving yourself?

Speaker 2: 1:01:49

So at the core of it is really just trying to be as curious as possible with yourself. First, try and understand what is the narrative that you're carrying with you in all of these situations. What's, what's your perspective and judgment of yourself? These, these are the things that I would probably say are baseline, and one of them also is you know, do I respect myself enough to be able to say no and create boundaries? Because if you are stepping into the dating space, you need to have that arsenal of tools that is with you to protect yourself. So I think these are the basic questions that I would say you need to visit to understand a hundred percent where you are, first and foremost, before stepping into that. Then I'd layer it one up by being curious about what contexts you put yourself in.

Speaker 2: 1:02:40

So how do you feel when you go to yoga? How do you feel when you go and do a bit of breath work? How do you feel when you're around certain people? How do they leave you feeling emotionally? Do you feel wow. I met my best friend and we were in conversation and it was just an absolute flow because my heart space was open. You're in flow. It's just a question of now that becomes a transferable skill of how do you take that experience, do the same things that you were doing on a behavioral and an emotional level and equally a thinking level, and then apply it to something else.

Speaker 1: 1:03:09

I feel like that's a great starting point. That's something that people can relate to, right when to identify it in one space and then look for it in the dating space, and we've been focusing on dating and finding partnership. That's what this conversation has been about, but this can be applied to every other area of your life.

Speaker 2: 1:03:32

Everything, absolutely, because I think when, when you how do I put this? When, when you are hugely tapped into your sexual energy and I'll explain it from a masculine position in the sense of, if I don't want to penetrate, everything that walks right, and I'm seeing the feminine as a source of inspiration to me, it's like, oh my God, she's beautiful, she's beautiful, that's beautiful, mother nature is beautiful and I take that energy that starts building up within me and I start applying that to something that I want to create. You become unstoppable. So, if we can use sexual energy as a form of inspiration, it becomes a transferable skill and a transferable builder to anything that we want to create.

Speaker 1: 1:04:21

And that is why I always say that one of my goals is to help specifically women with sexual empowerment, and what that means is using your sexual energy to create the life around you, to do the things that you want to do, because when you're cut off from it, you're disempowered. When you're shameful, when you feel shame around it, you are disempowered.

Speaker 2: 1:04:49

A very simple question that I could ask 90% of women and you're probably going to get some resistance to this is actually have you ever looked at your vulva? Have you spent time looking and adoring yourself? That is, in my head, a gateway to heaven, right. Have you actually spent the time looking at what you've been given?

Speaker 1: 1:05:13

And even worse than that is oftentimes, when women do, they report back feeling like it's gross and ugly. And I one woman did a monologue about her pussy and equated it to a naked mole rat and I was like why, why do you feel that way about your own, like such a powerful part of your own body?

Speaker 2: 1:05:41

I can. I can give you an answer to that because because I can? Because more than likely she hasn't allowed herself to experience pleasure. And the second, she connects pleasure with her part of the body. That's when that mindset can start changing.

Speaker 1: 1:05:59

Right.

Speaker 2: 1:05:59

But most people will avoid the pleasure component of me connecting, exploring, touching, understanding and that's where they keep themselves really from actually understanding their bodies.

Speaker 1: 1:06:11

Well, we're working on that. That's why we're here right To help change that. I want to thank you so much for this conversation. I know I learned a lot today and I feel like it's a get ready dating world. Here I come and I'm armed with a good conversation.

Speaker 2: 1:06:37

So thank you so much for that. Any final thoughts you want to leave my listeners with? One of my favorite sayings is love flows through everything, and I think it's really important to try bring yourself to a loving space in everything that you do, because the minute you can connect with love of self, love of the world, that you're in love of the moment and there's always shitty moments but the second you can connect with there is love everywhere. It just makes things a little bit easier.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

Thank you. Thank you for sharing that, and can you tell my listeners where they can find you if they want to get in touch with you?

Speaker 2: 1:07:11

So the two, well three, best places would be my website, massimolove, instagram is Dr Massimo Fontana and TikTok is equally Dr Massimo Fontana.

Speaker 1: 1:07:24

So you can go there. You can find out more about him. I know that you have some books that they can check out.

Speaker 2: 1:07:30

You have offerings I have a lot of offerings on the website in terms of, and one of them is called the, the comprehensive compatibility matrix, and if you really want to find the person that you want to be dating, work through the workbook. You will find the answers.

Speaker 1: 1:07:50

Perfect, all right Listeners, you know. If you have any questions, comments you can head to my YouTube channel, which is at TalkSexWithAnnette. You can drop your comment in the comment section of this video. If you are only on audio, you can scroll down. You can click on the link to my speak pipe and send me a voicemail, or you can contact me at Annette at TalkSexWithAnnettecom. And thank you for joining me, annette. Thank you for having me.

Speaker 2: 1:08:23

It's been beautiful, thank you.

Speaker 1: 1:08:24

It has been. And to my listeners listeners. I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.