Non-Monogamy & Open Relationships: Nonsense or a Better Approach to Love

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What if societal norms weren't the guiding principles of your relationships? What if you had the chance to design your own relationship style? Effy Blue, an open relationship coach, joins us to break down the constructs of non-monogamous relationships and open relationships. We dive into the difference between relationship style by default (monogamy) and the different types of non-monogamous relationships (relationships by design), address the criticisms and questions around them, and elaborate on the significance of intentionally designing our relationships to enhance our happiness.

Find out more about Effy Blue here: https://effyblue.com/
Don't miss this article on non-monogamy: https://sheexploreslife.com/types-of-relationships-women-can-explore/

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Chapters

• 0:47 Exploring Non-Monogamy and Open Relationships
• 11:05 Exploring Non-Monogamy and Addressing Jealousy
• 21:55 Understanding Jealousy and Envy in Relationships
• 31:34 Exploring Non-Monogamy and Relationship Dynamics
• 44:19 Setting Yourself Up for Non-Monogamous Success
• 53:04 Managing Abandonment Issues in Relationships

Transcript

Annette Benedetti: 0:47

Hi, this is Annette Benedetti, your hostess for a locker room talk and shots, the podcast that likes to think of itself as the queer NPR of raunchy women's sex talk. You are about to sit in on the kind of conversations women have on their girls' nights out or behind closed doors, while enjoying delicious drinks and dishing about sex, think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy one orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's locker room talk and shots topic is non-monogamy and open relationships nonsense or a better approach to love.

Annette Benedetti: 1:35

Listener, you've been around for a while. If you've been around for a while, then you're well aware that over the last 10 to 15 years of my life, I have primarily been in non-monogamous relationships, with some monogamy mixed in, and over the journey of my own relationship life, I have been faced with a lot of scrutiny. I've been faced with a lot of questions and, to be frank, I have been in community with Polly people and people involved in open relationships, especially recently and in situations that made me question non-monogamy. Now here's the good news I have a guest today who specializes in non-monogamous relationships and alternative relationship style, and I feel fairly confident that she is going to be able to help us answer the questions we have about it.

Annette Benedetti: 2:29

My guest today is Effy Blue. She is a relationship coach specializing in supporting people who are curious about transitioning into, or who have hit roadblocks in, non-traditional relationships. Her coaching philosophy relationships by design as opposed to relationships by default encourages folks to consciously and dynamically design their relationships with the goal of everyone thriving. She is also the co-host of Curious Fox podcast for those challenging the status quo in love, sex and relationships, and if this podcast is about anything, it is about challenging the status quo. So, effy, could you take a moment to introduce yourself to my listeners?

Effy Blue: 3:14

Absolutely. My name is Effie Blue. Like you said, I'm a relationship coach. I've been doing this for about seven years.

Effy Blue: 3:22

Prior to that I was in the corporate world. I had my experience in that and then I pivoted at a time in my life where I was also figuring out my own relationship structures and I had already been through my life and came up with this idea of life by design. I just realized that at that point in my life I was doing really well in my career. On paper I should have been thriving, I was earning a lot of money At status, I was very high up in my career, I was traveling the world and I wasn't content and I couldn't really figure out why. And it just culminated with again another period of my time I'd moved to New York City and I met some people that were living these different type of relationships and I was in a position where I could just press pause, take a sabbatical and really kind of rip my life apart to really understand where was this contentment coming from. And with that I came up with this idea of really for my own work, a life by design. What would happen if I designed everything from scratch for myself and I made decisions really with this one idea of will I thrive If I do this? Will I thrive If I do this? Will this nurture and support a state of thriving for me? And I was able to do that.

Effy Blue: 4:50

And the one part that I really wasn't getting it is the relationship part. So I honed in on that. And I'm a nerd I'm naturally a nerd. I was the kid whose homework you copied at school, who did extra credit, who read the extra books, was a head in class. I'm a nerd by nature. So I just took this deep dive into relationship relationship psychology. I went back to school retrained and came out the other side as a relationship coach and I really wanted to understand and help people who the one size fits all prescription from society around relationships, the relationship by default model wasn't working for because it wasn't working for me. And then, once I figured out that I could also have a relationship by design, then it was a big revelation for me and it was a big passion for me to then spread that word and support people to do the same for themselves.

Annette Benedetti: 5:49

Yeah, that's wonderful and I think that resonates with me and I imagine it will resonate with a lot of my listeners.

Annette Benedetti: 5:58

So, listener, I want you to stay to the end, because as always at the end, I'm going to give you your takeaways with Effie, and if you are thinking about trying a new relationship model, stepping into the non-traditional, then by the end of this podcast you are going to have sort of a starter package to launch that, if you're already well on your way or have been giving non-monogamy a try, you're also just, I think, going to get a lot of information that's going to help solidify your movement forward in those relationships. As always, if you have questions, I want you to scroll down to the description of this podcast. There is a link and you can leave me a voicemail with your question. I can get answers from Effie. I will give you your answers either in another podcast or an article, but leave me your voicemail. You don't have to leave your name, you can be anonymous, so do that as well. Effie, I am excited about this conversation. I got coffee over here. What time you are in Turkey? What time is it there?

Effy Blue: 7:09

It is 7.15 pm in the evening.

Annette Benedetti: 7:12

We're at opposite ends of the day.

Effy Blue: 7:14

We are, we are exactly, exactly, but I will join you with a cup of tea.

Annette Benedetti: 7:18

I love it. All right. Well, cheers. Let's talk about sex and relationships. I just want to start this conversation. For those who are completely new to the concept of non-monogamy, can you just define what non-monogamy is as a relationship style?

Effy Blue: 7:38

Absolutely, absolutely. It's funny If you asked me this five years ago people really didn't understand, but definitely have noticed in the last five years it's become a huge part of the zeitgeist, it has become a very legitimate relationship structure and it is non-monogamy. It's kind of defined itself in the negative right. It's not monogamy. Monogamy is two people at a time. It used to be two people for life and these days it's two people at a time, so a couple that is in an intimate, close relationship and not dating anybody else or not seeing anybody else.

Effy Blue: 8:17

One monogamy on the other side is when you are open to having multiple relationships at the same time and it can look in so many forms, right? This is not linear, but just to give you sort of two different styles that it might look like. So you can have something like monogamy-ish, right, which is something that Dan Savage came up with, and this idea is that you are in a monogamous relationship. Maybe you're a couple and then every now and then you'll double. You will maybe go and have a threesome with somebody, or you'll go and hang out at a sex party, or on your birthday you get a whole pass for someone, right? So you're a monogamous, there's just the two of you and then every now and then you're doubling outside right.

Effy Blue: 9:01

Now you're sort of moving more to the middle. Maybe you're an open relationship, so you recognize a core relationship, or some people call it a primary relationship my language that I choose is really core relationships so you kind of recognize the couple of them that you're in while making room and space and time for having other relationships right, while recognizing that there's one core relationship. Now we're moving sort of to the other side of that. Now we are in the realm of polyamory. Like poly, many amory, many loves. So polyamory you're looking at long-term, involved, intimate relationships with multiple people where you may or may not recognize the core relationship, but you're really looking at long-term, invested, loving relationships with more than one person. That's kind of what the very roughly the lay of the land looks like in non-monogamy.

Annette Benedetti: 10:55

Right. So that was interesting and answered one of my questions I always was curious about when do you go from non-monogamy to calling yourself polyamor? Yes and it sounds like you define that as when you really move into multiple long-term relationships that have more of an equal status.

Effy Blue: 11:20

Sure. So this is just a technicality. But every polyamorous person is non-monogamous, right? So non-monogamy is almost like an umbrella term. So you have as an umbrella you have monogamy, and then you have non-monogamy, and then under the non-monogamous you know broad umbrella term, you have open relationships, you have polyamory, you have swinging, you have monogamy-ish, you know, and then you have different types of these relationships. You have non-hierarchical polyamory, where everyone's kind of there's no recognized one relationship but everyone's on the same footing. You have parallel polyamory, where people are in long-term invested relationships that aren't connected to each other. You have kitchen table polyamory, where everyone's kind of is able to sit around the table and break bread and get to know each other. So it really depends on what your relationship looks like and it's kind of what you want to call it. It's really, you know, it's really up to you, just from a terminology point of view, if you think of non-monogamy as an umbrella term and then everything else is like versions of non-monogamy. I hope that helps.

Annette Benedetti: 12:28

Yes, it does, and I mean I think one thing that has always drawn me to non-monogamy is that it doesn't feel like there's this rigid set of rules around what you have to call it or how it's structured.

Annette Benedetti: 12:45

And while it's something that draws me to it, I think it's also something that makes raises an eyebrow from people. And when I first came to non-monogamy it was people always called it ethical non-monogamy and I have moved away from that because in my mind I feel like it is ethical. Non-monogamy is ethical by nature, Whereas I question sometimes how ethical monogamy is, because it feels very like forced and oftentimes unhealthy and controlling and stuff like that. So I don't use ethical non-monogamy, I just call it non-monogamy. But yeah, I think the lack of rules sometimes people are like, assume it's like this, free for all where people can just fuck whoever they want to, without worrying about how it makes some sense.

Annette Benedetti: 13:40

They're just worrying about how it makes someone else feel. Can you address that top concern that comes up?

Effy Blue: 13:48

Absolutely. And also I want to just join you in. I am the same. I feel very strongly about not calling ethical non-monogamy ethical non-monogamy, because non-ethical non-monogamy is cheating and any healthy relationship, regardless of the structure, monogamy or non-monogamy, is ethical in its design. So I don't necessarily think monogamy isn't ethical. I think there are ethical monogamy and then if it's not well managed it's not ethical. But I think as long as relationship is healthy and thriving and considered in my book, it's ethical by nature. So I don't necessarily believe in saying ethical non-monogamy either. I think the reason why we say it actually my theory on this and I talk about this a lot is because it's still scary and it is a pre-qualifier to kind of tell people no, no, it's okay, it's okay, it's ethical. I think just we have to somehow qualify this idea of non-monogamy because the initial idea of it is like it's wrong, it's dirty, it's immoral. It just still carries all these connotations. So I think the ethical non-monogamy piece is to kind of appease the people who are jumping into conclusions to think exactly what you're saying is you're just like fucking around all the time, nobody cares about anybody, nobody cares about the other person or the relationship and all that kind of stuff, which is not the case. But I think that's where the ethical piece comes from and I don't use it either for this reason and around what it looks like. So this is the way I think about it.

Effy Blue: 15:25

Monogamy comes out of the package with what I call default settings. Like your phone comes out of the box and it has got default setting pre-installed. You can very much just use it as it's. Somebody thought about a user experience. Somebody installed a bunch of settings and it works and it functions and it is same across the board. So anybody my 80-year-old mom can get an iPhone out of a bag, out of a box, and use it and it will function. I think that's what Monogamy is. Society has come up with a set of default settings, if you will, around relationships and they call it Monogamy and you can use it out of the box. It is fine.

Effy Blue: 16:06

When you cross over to non-monogamy, you are now customizing your relationship. You can think about it as that. You can think about it as I'm now going to go through my settings and see how do I want it to work for me. Like for me specifically, like, how do I want it when I look at my phone. What do I want it to say? Like all that kind of stuff. Translate that into relationships.

Effy Blue: 16:27

Or you can look at that as paint by numbers monogamy versus a blank canvas non-monogamy and yes, it can be really exciting to have a blank canvas that you can come up with your own design. It could also be scary, like most of us who write know how scary a blank page can be. And then when you are then talking to people who are talking about non-monogamy and they're saying there are no set rules, you make up your own rules. Now it's exciting and scary at the same time. So, yes, that is very real. What it means is that you then have to become very conscious.

Effy Blue: 17:08

So the relationship by design idea is rather than this it's about consciously and dynamically designing your relationship Consciously, meaning what do I want from a relationship Like, what do I want a relationship to afford me? Right, and I don't mean that transactionally, but I am co-creating a relationship with a person or persons, right? Why am I doing that? What is the purpose of this? How do I want to feel in this relationship? Right? And then dynamically designing all the features of a relationship to really support that idea of what do I want and to support this idea of thriving, like, are we all thriving in this co-creation that we've come up with? And no rules, free for all.

Effy Blue: 17:55

You fuck who you want, you let go of your boundaries and you let go of your responsibilities? Is a design Right? No judgment. If it works for you and your partner or partners, sure. If everyone's thriving in this kind of abandoned, nihilistic way of looking at relationships, good for you. But there's no judgment, right. What tends to happen is actually people kind of sit around the table and go okay, now we have this blank canvas. What do we want it to look like? The big topic is like what are our boundaries Right? Like, what are the things that are not okay? That's kind of where we most start with. And then what I really encourage people to do to spend as much time on boundaries as what do I want it to be Like? How do I want to feel? How do I then want to translate these desires, these the way that we're going to thrive, into a relationship structure? Does that make sense?

Annette Benedetti: 18:49

Yes, yes. So it involves a lot of communication, where you're listening to what each person you are in a relationship with wants out of a relationship, needs out of a relationship, and figuring out how do we create the relationship that supports all of our needs and wants.

Effy Blue: 20:09

Yes, To the best of our ability. You are, first and foremost, yes, and first and foremost, you're listening to yourself, right, right, because now you're saying monogamy. I'm not just adhering to the monogamy, but I actually have to now tap into myself and decide what is it that I need? What is that I want? What is it that I desire? I seek that. I'm curious about Right, and that piece comes first. And then, once you get clear about that, then you put that on the table and the people that you want to be in a relationship with do the same, hopefully, and then you co-create something that works for you.

Annette Benedetti: 20:40

It sounds amazing. It has been amazing for me for the most part. But the question that comes up and I think everyone probably deals with at some point is what about jealousy? People will say to me all of the time I could never be non-monogamous, I could never have my partner with somebody else. I'm just too jealous, I just couldn't do it. Like I couldn't do it. It would. I wouldn't trust them, I'd be worried about them leaving me for someone else. That is such a big piece that for most everybody and I know not everybody, but most everybody that is ingrained into us because we have been born into a society for the most part most of us where monogamy is the default and we are taught to get and keep a partner at any cost and to see all the other threats out there, right, and somehow fight them off and keep this person. So what is your response to that?

Effy Blue: 21:40

For sure, I think jealousy is like in the top three questions that get asked when you talk about non-monogamy. So I'm not surprised you're going there and absolutely jealousy is very real. Honestly, I haven't met anybody who's healthy and sane who does not feel jealousy. It is an emotion just like anything else. It is like fear, it's like sadness, it's like joy, it's like nervousness. It is an emotion that we all feel. It is a composite emotion. So it's not sort of your sort of more primary emotions like fear or love. You're sort of jealousy is a composite emotion and the research says that jealousy occurs when we perceive a significant threat to a significant relationship. This is the very simple sort of definition of how jealousy occurs. This is what the research says when we perceive a significant threat to a significant relationship. So if you bring this like, break this down, this idea of perceiving a significant threat to a significant relationship can happen in any relationship. Because now you're saying significant relationship, that could be a monogamous relationship just to one person. It could be parental, it could be friendship, it could be any relationship that you have. It could be any relationship that you feel significant to. Now a significant threat. That's also very relative. What is a significant threat, right. Some people can see their partner's promotion in their career a significant threat, right, it doesn't have to be another person, right? Or they can think of a new interest in a new hobby as a significant threat Because it takes them away from the relationship. It takes away from that, right? So that's also a big topic now and it's being perceived. So it's real or perceived, we don't know. As long as we're perceiving it, this idea of this feeling of jealousy is triggered. Right.

Effy Blue: 23:37

And yes, in non-monogamous relationships there are more obvious and societally reinforced threats that can come up. Right, there's no story, for example, in our broader society, around two women who love the same man and get along. All the stereotypes that we have out there is that mother and daughter or mother and daughter-in-law, all these sort of couplings. When you have two women loving a man, regardless of the type of love, we are being told there should be conflict, right? So in our social consciousness we think that if two women love one man, there should be conflict, right? So all these ideas that are what we call in the show the noise, right? So this idea of a threat is out there and what we've been told should be scary the idea that if our partner's interest in someone else, they are inevitably going to leave us. Right Again, that is an idea that's just in our noise. It's like it's not confirmed.

Effy Blue: 24:48

One of the things I say to people why would anybody leave a happy, healthy, thriving relationship, especially if it's an open one, right? So let's just look at where these fears are coming from. Are they coming from the idea that you're now non-monogamous and all these people might steal your partner? Or, on some level, are you aware that there are some cracks in your core relationship and you haven't addressed it? And now that those guardrails have been taken off, you can't avoid seeing those things Right? Because what tends to happen with non-monogamy especially if you're transitioning into it from monogamous structure, it's like stadium-sized floodlights get turned on onto the relationship. So things that were once like dim-lit in the corners, that you don't really address, suddenly all those things are loud, bright and clear that you have to deal with that jealousy and fear is not rooted necessarily in the reality that someone else might steal your partner.

Annette Benedetti: 25:49

It's that there is something going on in that core relationship that you know on some level is problematic, that you're not dealing with and taking care of, and so it's not a secure relationship. It is in an insecure place, for sure or you're insecure within yourself.

Effy Blue: 26:11

You have some limiting beliefs about yourself that are saying something like you're not good enough, that you don't matter enough, that they don't care about you enough, that you're not lovable enough. So suddenly these negative self-beliefs are also bringing fear into the relationship. So jealousy is really about fear. It's a perceived significant threat to a significant relationship. Essentially, it's about fear. Yeah, so when jealousy comes up, my invitation to people is pause, take some breaths. You know truly like. Sit down, feel your feet on the ground, feel your seat, your butt on the seat. Take ID to 10 breaths that's a lifetime for some people like five breaths. That will regulate your emotional, your nervous system. And then ask yourself what am I afraid of? And keep asking until you peel back the layers. Do you really get to the issue? And I think you'll find you know that is what you need to deal with. Your partner showing interest in somebody else is triggering a fear. So you need to get to the fear to understand what's going on for you.

Annette Benedetti: 27:20

I don't think of jealousy as this bad emotion. A lot of people frame jealousy as it's this bad thing you have to get rid of. I've always thought of jealousy as a guide. It's just another emotion that gives me information, right For sure. It gives me information about myself, it gives me information about my relationship. It gives me information about how I feel about the other person, and then the trick is like being honest with yourself about that information you get and then taking action right, whether it's I've got to fix something with myself, or I need to fix the relationship, or I need to address something directly with my partner.

Effy Blue: 28:04

Yes, absolutely. And I think it's also worth thinking about envy as well, because I think envy comes up too. So with envy, so with jealousy, is like I don't want you to have that thing. Envy is I want that too, right? That's the difference. And sometimes envy comes up in situations like this.

Effy Blue: 28:26

Let's say you and your partner have a great relationship. They're now dating somebody else and as a part of that relationship, they're now embarking on something like new, fresh and exciting. They are starting. They've taken up a hobby together, right? They've started sailing together. I'm living by the sea right now, so, like, sailing is on my mind. So they've started sailing together and you're noticing that. You know that's bringing joy to your partner's life and they're growing. And there's this connection. Is it jealousy, is it envy, or is it both? Is it telling you that actually, you're envious of what they're doing and you want that too, right? So if that is the case, what is the conversation you're having with your partner around? Hey, I'm really loving this connection, this new thing, this newness that you're experiencing. I really would like that for us too. Like what can we do, right? So I think that's really important too. Just realize that jealousy is one thing. It's more about fear, and what you're afraid of and envy is about what is it that you want that you're not?

Annette Benedetti: 29:29

getting, and it's important to be able to tell the difference between jealousy and envy. Is there a trick to being able to tell which one you're experiencing? I guess, as it can still be confusing, right.

Effy Blue: 29:42

Oh, of course, these things are very confusing. These are very nuanced feelings and also you're experiencing these feelings in a time of confusion because there's new people coming in and maybe you're transitioning and you're activated. These are activated feelings so it can get very difficult to tell them apart and get clear. I would say I would really go back to what I was saying, which is try to identify, try to identify the base feeling right. So if it's about fear, right, I'm going to be left, I'm not good enough. You know, most of the time you're coming down into fear of abandonment, fear of rejection, like those are. Like you dig, dig, dig, dig, dig. Mostly you're coming down to I'm not good enough or they're going to leave me, like those are often where we come down to.

Effy Blue: 30:30

And if you're dealing with that, if you're dealing with that, you're in the realm of jealousy and the work is about, you know, getting to a secure place, finding self-confidence, being able to get to know yourself, being self-expressed and all that kind of stuff. Right, envy is when you dig, dig, dig, dig, dig and it's about wanting a yearning and like I want that too. Right, and it doesn't come from fear, it's more like it can actually feel like. On the negative side, it can feel like resentment this is the thing that I want and I'm not getting. It could be a yearning. Oh, I wish I had that thing too. The work around that is very different. It's about getting clear about what you want, negotiating the things that you want, making a request, actually figuring out how you're going to get the thing, the feeling or the connection that you're yearning for. Those are the ways to do some self inquiry and tell the difference. Does that?

Annette Benedetti: 31:29

help. It's very, very helpful. I want to shift gears a little bit. I would say throughout my dating experience, when I've connected with people oftentimes men, more often men than women, because I date both I have run into people who use non-monogamy in what I would say I would consider sort of abusive ways, meaning they say that they're non-monogamous but instead of creating non-monogamous relationships, it feels more like they're just trying to be able to have sex with as many people as they want.

Annette Benedetti: 32:09

Or they have a primary relationship and they're like oh, we're non-monogamous and my wife is fine with this, and it really becomes more of a just trying to see how many people they can hook up with, type thing. And suddenly you're wrapped up in this relationship. You think you're in and you're actually just dating someone who's kind of using it in this harmful way. And I think it's one of the ways that non-monogamy gets again a bad reputation. People who are like oh, there's non-monogamy, so I guess I can be in this relationship and then I can do whatever I want. Can you speak to that at all For sure?

Effy Blue: 32:53

I wonder if it's just non-monogamy, because I can definitely see how monogamy is weaponized too, that it's a weapon for control, a weapon for oppression. I'm not saying non-monogamy is those things. That's not what I'm saying, absolutely not. What I'm saying is it can be used as tools for control and oppression, in a way that non-monogamy can be used to avoid intimacy and closeness and connection and all those kind of things. So I think if you're not in a good place, you can weaponize any relationship structure to and ends up being kind of harmful to you and you don't really realize, but it's being harmful to you as well and the people that you're connecting with as well. So I think it's really about the people who are dating to be conscious and have good communication, to get clear about all these things and asking questions like what is available in this relationship? How do you want to have this relationship? If they're saying to you, oh, my wife and I were in open relationships, she's OK with it. And if it doesn't feel right to you, just ask the questions how long have you been non-monogamous? What does that look like for you? How often do you date? Does she date, does he date? And having the confidence to realize.

Effy Blue: 34:15

I think some people don't ask those questions either because they don't want to upset the situation and two they want to avoid. They want to think about the fact that this person they're dating has another partner, and I would discourage people from both of those things. You go into any relationship with confidence that is important and confidence to take care of yourself, to really understand what kind of relationship that you're walking into. And if you find yourself not wanting to think about the person having another partner, you probably shouldn't be dating them. And I think hopefully you're over those things and you're at a dating stage with this person.

Effy Blue: 34:55

Just ask the questions and do you just want to have fun, sexy one-time experiences? And if you do, that's OK. I just need to know, because I might want those and I can then come into this relationship in that mode, versus thinking there's going to be something more and bigger than that. And this really just goes back to this communication around. Tell me what kind of a relationship you're looking for and if you're in an existing relationship, what does that look like? What are your boundaries, what are your agreements, what's OK, what is not OK, what is available in this relationship. So just to really ask what I think to be sensible questions, as you're dating people.

Annette Benedetti: 35:40

Yeah, it sounds to me like communication ahead of time is the big piece here, of course.

Annette Benedetti: 35:45

You're like decisions can't be made in a moment. It's like at the beginning what are you looking for, what are you OK for, when you're both clear-minded and sitting down and talking about what you're doing? And I think what happens oftentimes is people just jump into things without those conversations and without having time to really get in touch with what I want and what really stands out. That you said is that both non-monogamy and monogamy are weaponized for control in very different ways. In very different ways. I chose after being in a very long marriage and a series of monogamous relationships that felt very controlling. I chose non-monogamy because I didn't want to feel controlled and I wanted to feel like I could choose what my relationships looked like and, generally speaking, I feel like that has been a better route for me. I mentioned at the beginning of this podcast I was recently in community with a group of people who defined themselves as polyamory and it really was the first time since I began my non-monogamy journey that I was sort of jarred and questioned.

Annette Benedetti: 37:55

This community of queer people really had this form of non-monogamy where you never knew what was going on and we'd all go out dancing and then people would end up making out but then go back to whatever their relationships were. And there wasn't really like there weren't conversations taking place between people ahead of time. And I had a night where I was out with a date and it was like fresh meat in the water and I was really jarred by it. Having sort of my people I thought were my friends and community descend on this person and we had been consuming alcohol and stuff like that and in the moment, well after I'd had drinks, people asked me consent oh, do you mind if I make out with your date? And I wasn't able to express myself fully.

Annette Benedetti: 38:54

Right, I consented to the situation but then had feelings the next day and the response I largely would get from people while in this community, if anyone was upset with something that happened on the night out, it was like well, I thought you were poly, why do you have a problem with that? You're supposed to be poly. And I think this conversation really helps clarify Polyamory non-monogamy isn't. It's not a free for all, it's not kissing whoever you want or out with whoever you want without conversations that really take place ahead of time. And I think you'd agree in a consensual situation, right? Sure, and this has to be a situation where everyone's clear-minded and able to really get in touch with what do I want and what do I need out of relationships, and that's relationships with yourself, with an intimate partner, and with friends, right and community.

Effy Blue: 39:53

Sure, absolutely Listen. There are free for all very fluid polyamorous collectives, micro communities that work, right, and it feels like no one's having conversations working. And they do exist, and the thing that they have had a conversation about at some point is that that is how they're going to roll. That's the nature of that group, right? But I think, yes, there are certain polyamorous relationships where people talk about every single detail, every single agreement, every single boundary, and everything is processed and detailed and maybe even written down. They exist.

Effy Blue: 40:36

And then, on the very, very other end, you get people who are, like you know, relationship anarchists or like this non-hierarchical, fluid poly where minimum conversation is had is just that everybody agrees that everyone's going to do whatever they want to do and that is OK for everyone, right? There is no better or worse. There is no one of the structure that I champion over another one or recommend over another one. It just needs to work for you. It just needs to be the relationship that you're going to thrive in, and only you will know if you're going to thrive in that kind of relationship and what kind of relationship that you will thrive in, right?

Effy Blue: 41:13

Somebody who is deeply attached to their autonomy, deeply attached to their independence. You know, fluid personality, even fluid agenda, and doesn't want any constraints or whatever reason might actually thrive in that kind of open polyamory versus they might find the kind of the structure that a lot of communication polyamory stifling right. So it's just really understanding, like you said. Going back to what you're saying is you need to understand what is it that you need? There was that you want what is it that you want a relationship to afford you and then pick the pick the style that really supports that as much as it can.

Annette Benedetti: 41:52

Right, because within non-monogamy and polyamory there are multiple styles and different. For sure it's a spectrum. And I guess that's the beauty of relationship styles is that there is a spectrum.

Effy Blue: 42:08

Spectrum, I would go as far as to say more of a constellation. That's the way I think about it, because I think spectrum then puts everything on a linear kind of form as well, and it's pretty hard to put non-monogamous structures in a linear form. I tried, and it's really hard because I was using it in my practice to get people to explain, and it's really kind of hard. There is actually, if you look up a non-monogamy Venn diagram online, you'll see this crazy Venn diagram that somebody has created of how these different relationships interlocked with each other and called what it's this crazy thing that you can do For me. What I find is easier to think about is a constellation. There are all these different expressions of relationships and they're kind of connected to each other and you just find your constellation in the night sky. That works for you.

Annette Benedetti: 43:02

Yeah, I like that. I like that. It sounds like it's most important to figure out from the get-go, and maybe this is a good segue into people who are listening and really wanting to dip their toe in non-monogamy but feel fearful of maybe ending up on the wrong constellation. I was in the wrong constellation and had a wake-up call right. I was like this does not make sense to me, nor does it feel good. I'm unsettled constantly and I didn't have the education that I just received in that there are many constellations and that if this is unsettling, it doesn't mean that I'm not non-monogamous. It doesn't mean that non-monogamy isn't for me. It's just that planet maybe isn't my planet.

Annette Benedetti: 43:54

Exactly and I can see how, for someone who's just been ingrained in monogamy from the get-go but wanting to try something else, could be intimidated at the idea of dipping their toe in the water and trying out non-monogamy. So maybe we can start talking about four beginners, or even people who are early in their journey. What are some things to do to set yourself up for success in non-monogamy?

Effy Blue: 44:27

Yes, if you're somebody who's solo and is looking to venture into non-monogamy and currently you're not in a relationship and you're a solo person that's venturing, I would say do some research, read some books, listen to some podcasts. You're listening to one right now. There are a bunch of other ones that are specifically for non-monogamy. Definitely. My podcast is with my co-host, jekka Misla. It's called the Curious Fox podcast. Multiamary is a. I think. Multiamary has been around for about seven years. That is an enormous amount of resource around non-monogamy and there are a bunch of other ones. So if you're listening to this, you're probably a listener. So maybe find some other podcasts that are specifically talking about non-monogamy.

Effy Blue: 45:11

There's some great books out there. I'm a big fan of Polysecure. It's my most recent. It's the book that I recommend to everyone, of course, the Ethical Slut, which is the manifesto that is out there, and what I say about the Ethical Slut is it is not the Gospel, but it is a book that I recommend that everybody reads and has an opinion about. Your opinion could be it's the worst book that I've ever read and I don't agree with anything that it says. Totally fine. Or you could be like oh my God, I'm enlightened, I have a paradigm shift in my life. I'm going to change my entire life because of it. Right, you're probably going to be somewhere in the middle. So my invitation is not to have a specific feeling about it, but to have an opinion on that book. So the ethical side is a good one. So do some research right, understand the bigger concept of non-monogamy and what's out there. Then I would say, before we even begin dating.

Effy Blue: 46:10

Next I would say, see if you can find your local community. Non-monogamous people often by nature are social. That's one of the reasons why they non-monogamy appeals to them. They like connection, they like people, they like variety, especially on the polyamorous, and they will be your local community. I know you're in Portland, definitely Many in Portland. I'm usually in New York, plenty in New York. So if you're in a metropolitan area, I can guarantee that you have a polyamorous community, a non-monogamous community, and they're socializing. And they're not just socializing over sex parties and orgies. They're socializing over game nights and drinks and book clubs and things like this, because they are people of connection.

Effy Blue: 46:56

So I would really recommend that you go and find your local community and have conversations about people's experiences and ask questions, with consent, of course, what does your relationship look like? Why are you choosing that? What makes you thrive, what are some of the things that you struggle with? And really familiarize yourself with people's experiences and over time, as you read and listen and connect, it will reveal for you. The right constellation will call you, and I don't mean that in a spiritual way that sounds really spiritual, but in a very practical way. You will find out oh, this sounds great and this. I don't know how they do that, I can't imagine myself doing that. But as you hear the different variations of it, it will reveal to you what we'll call you. And that's kind of what I would say.

Effy Blue: 47:50

If you're in a solo journey, if you're a couple and you're interested in opening up, pretty much the same steps. Again, do some research, have broader conversations about it before you bring it down to your own relationship. So, instead of talking about what does non monogamy like, how do we open up, who do we date, zoom out and just talk about non monogamy as this thing, as this big topic, right. So talk about how do you feel about it, where do you see it working, where do you see it not working? So start big before you bring you know, come right down to your relationship. Similarly, do some research and discuss, meet your community and get some you know, connect and have some conversations Same and then, before you date, start to design a relationship that you think you're going to thrive. So get clear about why do you want to open this relationship right. Get very clear about what's working and what you're celebrating in this relationship, and also get very clear about what you're looking for as you open the relationship. So have those conversations as well, and then, before you date, this is something that I recommend to people and those who do it really really benefit from it, and those who don't do it come back to me and say I wish we did this. So, for about a couple like this is about discipline that is going to help you with your journey and also just was going to work with you on a very core nervous system level.

Effy Blue: 49:14

Start to design time very specific intentional time, like you can call it dates right, and I would really recommend you design three types of time. One is connection time right, so get into the habit of going on intentional dates date nights, date days, whatever it is but set times. We're going to do this for us to connect. Talk about what kind of connection and how do you want to feel, right? Do you want to connect and feel excited? Do you want to connect and have a sense of accomplishment? All these dates are going to look different, but be really intentional about this connection, the intentional connection time, because you're going to need it, right? The ability to get really connected.

Effy Blue: 49:56

Next is what I call together alone time. Right, and this is when you are connecting with yourself and intentionally temporarily disconnecting with your partner. Right, this could look like I'm going to do an hour of yoga and the other person is going to catch up with reading that they've been putting up for a while Now. What this isn't is I'm going to be on my phone here and you do the dishes over there. Right, this is intentional time that is set that I'm going to connect with myself, with my partner that is separate from me, but in the same space. This is going to allow you to tolerate this connection and separateness, and you're going to need that muscle, right? So you? You know something that I do with with my partner we go out dancing together and we dance separately, so we'll go to a club or we'll go to a dance class. We do a lot of intentional movement and dance and then we'll say, okay, this is a together alone time, so we'll be in the same club or we'll be in the same dance space and we'll dance separately. We'll have our own time. Maybe we'll dance with other people, but we're intentionally not connecting with each other and we also not making bids for connection. We're tolerating this connection and actually seeing if it's an opportunity to find connection with ourselves, maybe some self reflection, you know, like something, something good, right, we're looking for the joy in the disconnection. And then, of course, we we connect back again. So that's your together alone time.

Effy Blue: 51:24

And the third is alone time. Again, this is intentional time that you spend with yourself, separate from each other. You go and take up a hobby, you go and discover a new museum, you connect with friends that you haven't in a long time because you've been in this, in this duo. And that's really important, because it is going to be almost impossible for the two people to go and date at the same time. The chances are one person is going to be on a date and the other one the other person is going to be at home, right, you're going to have to get used to spending time on your own that feels good. You don't want to be sitting around yearning for the other person, worried about the other person you know, engulfed in kind of about the other, what the other person is doing. You got to get used to spending quality time with yourself, doing things that feed you, that you can thrive, right? So you do that before you even start dating.

Effy Blue: 52:19

This is a discipline about how you manage your time and how you manage your connection and disconnection. Once you've done that for a couple of times ideally on weekly basis right, your nervous system is going to look very different than before. You do that. You are going to get used to this idea of connection, disconnection, connection, disconnection without the world falling apart. Because where I see what people struggle the most when we dig, dig, dig down all the stories is connection with disconnection, the pain of this connection, inability to tolerate this connection and not being able to connect with themselves or not being able to connect with the other person after they've been connecting with somebody else. Right, these are the core emotional muscles that's required for any relationship and absolutely essential for non monogamy.

Effy Blue: 53:05

Once you've done that, there's also a bonus in that. What you've done is you've carved out some time. The time that you carved out for yourself is the time now you can allocate to dates. Because what happens is, if you don't do that, when you start dating you go to carve out time from somewhere and you immediately start to carve out time from your core relationship. What does that do? Upset people, of course, but if you have actually carved that time out throughout this process, it doesn't feel so painful, it doesn't feel so urgent, it doesn't feel like someone's being wronged or being taken from. Then you can start to say okay, during my alone time I'm actually going on a date and the other person is like oh great, in my alone time I'm going to connect with an old friend. Does that make sense?

Annette Benedetti: 53:57

No, it makes a ton of sense. I think that taking time from someone that has existed would be painful and feel like you're giving them less and nobody wants to feel like suddenly I'm getting less in a relationship.

Annette Benedetti: 54:15

Nobody wants to feel like that, right? Of course that makes a lot of sense Also building those muscles of feeling secure and disconnection, Because, and perhaps where things go wrong in a monogamous relationship, we disconnect. We have to do life, have moments of disconnection and that can be. I know for myself, I have a lot of abandonment issues.

Annette Benedetti: 54:45

So when I and I'm very aware, yes, I'm doing therapy around them, but I'm very aware of them, and so disconnection can send me into high anxiety Like this, feels like someone's leaving me right, and so learning and doing the work, the self soothing and reassuring and finding joy, even in those moments and in my own like, instead of it just being disconnection, this is time to reconnect with myself and, hey, maybe get to do some of those things I can't do when I'm with my partner, right, yeah, and finding those moments of disconnection exciting, building that tool, those tools, those muscles. It makes a lot of sense to me.

Effy Blue: 55:31

Yeah, just so that you know, people say I have abandonment issues all the time, right, yeah, and we kind of like we joke about it or we sort of brush it off. Let me just put context, and you feel this. So I'm just going to provide context for people to understand what that means. When people struggle with abandonment, they're struggling with a nervous system that equates abandonment with literal death, like only because so it is.

Effy Blue: 56:00

The attachment is our core number one, first ever defense mechanism we're born with. A human infant is born 100% dependent, with zero boundaries. That is just how humans are made, right. Then we? The only thing that we know is that in order to survive crime directive, survival we need to attach to somebody, a caregiver. We know that this is pre-programmed to us as a survival mechanism and that attachment, that first attachment, is what keeps us alive.

Effy Blue: 56:32

Literally, a human infant matures way too slowly. Three, four, five year old, total dirt cannot take care of itself. If you abandon that child, it's going to die, right? So in our nervous system we have a very clear message of what I call a piece of code in our operating system that says abandonment at a certain age is death, and we come up with all sorts of strategies to maintain that attachment right. And when somebody has an abandonment issue and I'm throwing air coats here it is that they have a struggle with that very core piece of code and as an adult it's still triggering like a child. So when they think of abandonment they think they're going to die. So we just need to be really compassionate with those people. We need to understand that they're not doing the things they're doing because they want to be difficult or demanding or evil or spoiled. They're doing it because they think they're going to die on some level and it just needs our extra compassion, extra attention to help them heal and support them.

Annette Benedetti: 57:34

I really appreciate it.

Annette Benedetti: 57:36

I guess I've never had the words to explain it that way and I do think that it's probably a term that gets overused, but it's also severely misunderstood.

Annette Benedetti: 57:45

When my abandonment issues are triggered, my body goes into fight or flight and even that's overused. But I try to explain it to my partner as it's suddenly like my body is reacting on a level of like bombs are dropping around me. Right, I feel like something horrible and nightmarish is about to happen and learning to override that and realize, well, I'm going to be safe and I'm going to be fine and life is going to go on and nothing horrific is happening. And turning that reaction off is very hard and I think that it is something, a muscle that can be built, and I'm learning how to do that, which has been amazing. Like for a long time, as someone with those issues, I just assumed we all reacted that way when relationships were struggling or coming apart. And then one day I woke up and I'm like oh no, not everybody feels this way. It's unique to my situation and in non-monogamous relationships, I think it's super important to know what your stuff is and to be able to communicate that with your partners.

Annette Benedetti: 58:57

So they understand how to be conscious of your stuff and also I think, like I feel like it's very important for me to take accountability for my own stuff and ask for what I need, and if I'm with a partner who cannot give that to me, then that is not a relationship that I can maintain.

Effy Blue: 59:19

And I think it's important to diversify your support system If you have abandonment struggles or any kind of relational struggles. But abandonment is a big one and, by the way, if we all react to abandonment, it is in our core system. It is a very human thing. So, in a similar way, if we go into a personal development, if we go species development, abandonment and rejection from the pact meant that you died in the wild because you couldn't sleep so early human majority of our human species development, abandonment and rejection also meant death because you couldn't survive in the wild. So it's very much wired into our evolutionary system that abandonment is scary and it has consequences.

Effy Blue: 1:00:04

So some people feel it a lot more severely, like it sounds like you do. Some people don't feel it. But nobody's blasé about abandonment. No one's like I'm going to be okay. Some people tolerate it a lot better. But it is not something that you just like brush off easily, just to give you some context.

Effy Blue: 1:00:23

And the other piece I wanted to say is also, if you are somebody who feels it acutely, like you're saying you do, one of the things that I really recommend is to diversify your support system. Your partner cannot be the only person, because that's actually counterintuitive. You want to be connected to multiple people so that abandonment from one person doesn't feel so severe. You can have all sorts of relationships. You can have friendships, you can have close to your family if this is available to you. Mentors, mentees, colleagues, peers, whatever those relationships are. It's really important to have a diverse set of relationships in your life that will support you with your abandonment issues, more than having one partner who you have said I need you to support me with this. They're your only source of support, because that's going to kick back, because anything they do, then you're just going to be carrying that relationship with kid gloves, because that's going to be the most important relationship for your existence and you don't want that.

Annette Benedetti: 1:01:26

I agree.

Annette Benedetti: 1:01:26

Yeah, that resonates and in some ways, I think, is also why I have been attracted to non-monogamous relationships.

Annette Benedetti: 1:01:36

Right it oddly enough and I guess not oddly enough now that you explain it it felt more secure to me and I have other.

Annette Benedetti: 1:01:49

I'm very fortunate. I'm very fortunate in the friend and community department, but I feel like you've given a really fantastic starter pack for people, whether they are single and wanting to try non-monogamy, or couples and trying to open up, which are two very different experiences and two very like totally different podcasts, as well episodes and topics, because it can be very difficult if you started out in a monogamous relationship to open up and it can be very touchy and a fragile relationship can be fractured by that, but sometimes it's also, I think, the thing that can help a relationship become healthy or healthier. So, listeners, if you have stayed till now, which I hope you have this would be an excellent opportunity for you to send me questions about specifically that are you in a relationship and you wanna open up and I know some of you are, because I have gotten messages from you in the past. What would you wanna ask Effie about that? What are some questions you have? Are there any final thoughts you want to leave my listeners and me with before we wrap this up.

Effy Blue: 1:03:12

Here is what I wanna say Among the myriad of relationships non-monogamy can afford, the most important of them all is the one with yourself. So cultivate that relationship, above all, and then approach your relationship from that place. And that relationship with yourself is not going to be fixed, right, because we get to this idea of this idea of a love yourself, which is something that I question a lot. We get a lot of this message like you must love yourself, you must love yourself, you must love yourself. There's a big fee. It's not that available to us, especially for women in a capitalist, patriarchal society.

Effy Blue: 1:03:54

Loving yourself is not an easy feat, right? What I really encourage people to do is develop a relationship with yourself. Start with tolerating yourself, start with being compassionate with yourself. Start with imagining what it would be to love yourself and realize that some days you're not gonna love yourself, some days you are. Sometimes you're not gonna like yourself and sometimes you're gonna adore yourself and think you're the best things in sliced bread. Right, it is just allowing an ongoing relationship and not judging. That is really important place to start. And then from that, with that muscle, that understanding, that insight, that self-connection, you can go into all sorts of relationships that will make sense for you. Monogamous, non-monogamous, open polyamory, whatever, whatever calls you, you will thrive in If you cultivate that relationship muscle with yourself, first and foremost.

Annette Benedetti: 1:04:47

That's relationship with yourself. That's one that can be a challenge, but I think is a worthwhile endeavor for sure. I often tell people that my most important relationship is the one that I have with myself. That's been a journey.

Effy Blue: 1:05:02

So there's Tina Horn, which is a great. She's a sex educator and she does a lot of talks. She has a whole talk on how everybody's polyamorous because our relationship with ourselves counts, so that I find a kind of an interesting twist on things as well, and the point that she's making is that the relationship with ourselves should be as important any other relationship. Therefore, we are all polyamorous, so that's just something to leave you with.

Annette Benedetti: 1:05:31

I love that. Thank you for sharing that, and can you give my listeners, before we wrap this up, a rundown on how they can get in touch with you, how they can watch you, how they can connect with you virtually?

Effy Blue: 1:05:43

EffieBullewcom is my website. That's EFFY blueliketheskycom. Have a look through the site If you're interested in looking for support around your transition into a version of non-monogamous relationship and it's a non-traditional relationship, so I work with people who are transitioning into non-monogamy also blended families, platonic co-parenting anything that is not your traditional sort of couple though I do have a lot of those clients as well, but that's kind of where my passion is. So, effiebullewcom from there, you can book a 20 minute mutual assessment call so we can talk about what's going on with you. And, if I can help, I also really recommend you check out the Curious Fox podcast. We cover love, sex and relationships week after week. We talk a lot about non-monogamy.

Effy Blue: 1:06:30

My co-host and I are both queer, non-monogamous women who both do this stuff from a professional point of view but also live it in our lives and we share a lot of that stuff. And then that's we are. Curiousfoxescom is the website that goes with the podcast and we have a lot of blog articles there. We have a lot of videos. Curious Fox used to be an in-person community in Brooklyn, new York, and we used to do a lot of events and socials and workshops and that kind of stuff and we recorded a bunch of that and that's all on the website and those are, I would say, the main spaces. So for me, feblucom for endless resource on this stuff. We are curiousfoxescom or Curious Fox podcast wherever you listen to podcasts.

Annette Benedetti: 1:07:19

Yeah, check it out. I did check out the website and it's pretty awesome. So take some time to go there. Take some time to listen. If you guys want to connect with me, you know where to find me. I'm on Instagram and Facebook. Locker Room Talk and Shots. She explores life. You can find me on TikTok at Locker Room Talk podcast website Locker Room Talk what is it? Lockerroomtalkpodcastcom. And don't forget to watch this podcast on YouTube at Annette Benedetti. You can listen and watch and you can actually see who we are and send me your voicemail. Thank you so much for joining me today, effie, and I look forward to talking to you in the future and to my listeners. I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers my loop.