Dom in the Streets. Sub Between the Sheets: The Truth About Dom & Sub Personality Traits

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Annette Benedetti here, your Locker Room Talk & Shots Podcast Host. I'm joined by the incredible Chris M Lyon, a certified relationship expert, and coach who has dedicated a good part of her career to researching the Dominant/Submissive Relationship style. Chris offers a fresh perspective on these intriguing dynamics, challenging conventional understanding and introducing her own terms, 'leading' and 'supportive'. She unpacks the insights from her groundbreaking book, "Leading an Supportive Love: The Truth About Dominant and Submissive Relationships" recounting her extensive research and real-life experiences that shape her unique approach.

Get ready to shatter your preconceived notions about submissive and dominant partners as we explore the most common personality traits of doms and subs, share the benefits of this relationship style, and reveal the unlikely place most difficulties arise in the dom/sub relationship.

By the end of the podcast, you'll even have a quick trick test to help you determine whether or not you are a natural dom or sub.

Find out more about Chris Lyon here: https://www.coachlyon.com/
Get her book here: https://www.amazon.com/Leading-Supportive-Love-Submissive-Relationships-ebook/dp/B009SZ2OPW

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Email: annette@talksexwithannette.com

Chapters

• 0:59 Understanding Dominant and Submissive Relationships
• 15:59 Understanding Submissive and Dominant Personalities
• 28:31 Dynamics of Dominance and Submission in Relationships
• 34:16 Challenges in Dominant Submissive Relationships
• 49:27 Understanding Dominant and Submissive Roles

Transcript

Annette Benedetti: 1:00

Hi, this is Annette Benedetti, your hostess for a locker room talk and shots, the podcast that likes to think of itself as the queer NPR of raunchy women's sex talk. You are about to sit in on the kind of conversations women have on their girls' nights out or behind closed doors, while enjoying delicious drinks and dishing about sex, think, fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One female orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room. Today's locker room talk and shots topic is Domin the Streets sub between the sheets the truth about dominant and submissive personality traits.

Annette Benedetti: 1:51

Listeners, you know I'm all about the Dom sub relationship and I don't know how many times you guys have been through this, but you know I've thought I wanted one thing in a partner a dominant person, a Dom, and I, you know, spent years flipping through the dating apps, going out on dates with people who swore up and down they were dominant, and then we'd get together and I'm like what in God's name is this? And over the course of the last couple of years of my life, I've had moments where I'm like what in God's name am I and, I think, a lot of us who are drawn to, in a sexual sense, the Dom sub relationship, oftentimes find ourselves confused about what we are, what we want, why it's not working out. Well, lucky you and lucky me, I've got a guest here today who has really put in the time, effort and research into defining, understanding and explaining the Dom sub relationship and the people who identify themselves as dominant and submissive, and she is going to answer a lot of our questions. I'm confident and my goal is that by the end of this podcast you are going to have I think it's going to blow your mind Truly. She published a book I'm going to be telling you about. I read it. My mind is blown, but you're going to have a lot of these questions answered. You are going to know better where you fit in, if at all, to the dominant and submissive relationship style and hopefully you'll be better able to define what you are and who you're looking for.

Annette Benedetti: 3:26

My guest today is Chris M Lyon. She is a relationship expert and coach, certified in applied neuroscience and brain health. She is the author of leading and supportive love the truth about dominant and submissive relationships and she has coached thousands through crisis, trauma and leadership for over two decades. Chris, I would like to hand the makeover to you and let you tell my listeners a little more about you.

Chris M. Lyon: 3:54

Oh, my goodness, thank you so much for this opportunity. I love being here. I just love what I do. I work with people on their relationship with themselves and others, and I've noticed that there are themes and there are trends over all the years that I've worked with so many people and heard from so many people, so I was really glad to be able to write this book and then recently put it on audio for more people to learn from it and learn about themselves and their relationships. So very much about that, and I've been coaching clients and working with clients for a couple decades, almost a quarter of a century.

Chris M. Lyon: 4:30

I also am a board certified hypnotist, so that's fine to mix that in there with that too.

Annette Benedetti: 4:34

So she did mention this book is on audible audio so you can download it and listen to it and I want to highly recommend it to anyone who is curious about the Dom sub relationship style, dynamic etc. I will, of course, put a link to that at the end of the podcast in the notes below, but I've got tons of questions and we don't have enough time to get through them. Also, let's cheers and let's raise our glasses. I'm ready to enjoy a drink and talk about dominant and submissive folks.

Chris M. Lyon: 5:10

All right, we got a lot to go through.

Annette Benedetti: 5:13

So let's dive right in. So first of all, I read your book. You have done you did your own research a lot of your own research on the dominant and submissive relationship style. So what I'd like to start this conversation is with your definition of the dominant and submissive relationship.

Chris M. Lyon: 5:38

Yes, and this would be the long term committed relationship. So, because people see it in a couple of different ways, so I would say that it is a long term committed relationship. The dynamic is of a leader and a follower.

Annette Benedetti: 5:54

I think that'd be probably the best way to describe it, for for most people, and in your book you don't frame it you change what you call each person in the relationship from dominant and submissive to leading and supportive.

Chris M. Lyon: 6:14

Yes.

Annette Benedetti: 6:15

Can I ask you why you made that change? That's an interesting story.

Chris M. Lyon: 6:22

I wanted to include everyone who is. I call it a relationship orientation. So if you're a dominant or submissive partner, that is your relationship orientation and that's regardless of your lifestyle or what kind of sex you're into, what kind of kink you're into, it really is just who you are. So I wanted to include everyone. So in the survey that I did, I asked people what do you think you know what term should we use? And I gave them some choices and they voted for leading and supportive. Not that I'm trying to change it. I think it's great. I call it dominant, submissive and that's more what the mainstream looks at. But my point was to point it out as a relationship. It's that I'm talking about a relationship, so leading and supportive can fit everyone who is dominant, submissive or whose vanilla, and doesn't see themselves as in that way Also.

Chris M. Lyon: 7:16

those terms could have negative connotations for some people, unfortunately. I wish they didn't. So my the people who I polled, which were a few hundred people. They decided on that terminology and I use that in the book, but in my own teaching and talking with people I mostly use dominant and submissive.

Annette Benedetti: 7:36

Right. So to clarify for my listeners a couple of things. First of all, chris herself has done a lot of research on this topic. You put out and I just was reading the book, so it was hundreds of people you did a survey, you polled yourself about this lifestyle. Beyond that, the research you did and people you talked to and so on and so forth, to kind of come up with this sort of guide that you've put together for dominant and submissive relationships.

Annette Benedetti: 8:11

So, listener, this isn't, this isn't just about sex, it's not just about how you bang, and we will touch on that a little bit later. But why I found this book so curious and interesting to me is I wonder how many of us try to only the only way we think about the Dom's relationship is like sexually, and we run into road bumps there. Perhaps by broadening our definition and trying to understand how it could be also exist in a relationship style, it might make finding that perfect partner a little bit easier. So Chris is going to talk to us about it on that broader level of an actual full time relationship style. This isn't about kink or sex. This is about intimacy, building a life together, correct?

Chris M. Lyon: 9:50

Yes, and that makes the kink and sex better.

Annette Benedetti: 9:53

Right, right, so that is the definition, and can you talk just a little bit about how that type of relationship looks from a day to day basis, like when people are like, wait a seconds. What does that mean? Is that a guy bossing a woman around, or can you clarify this a little bit for listeners?

Chris M. Lyon: 10:17

Well, I think that's a great question. Part of the research that I did was that I have lived as a dominant, submissive DS partner. I've lived as one of those partners actively, every single day of my adult life. I never have not been actively that partner type in a relationship. I've also worked with clients over many years as well that were either a dominant or submissive partner and they may not have realized it and they came to the realization that, yes, yes, that's me.

Chris M. Lyon: 10:49

So there's that, plus the poll that I took, the survey and plus all the research that I did for so many years, and I just I feel like day to day really depends on the individuals, right, but it really is. In the relationship there is someone who is leading as the relationship goes along. They say in my book I say it's like a captain and first mate. They're both working on the voyage together as a team, and so there's someone who is leading and there's someone who is supportive. They're both supportive, but the supportive partner who's following. And this doesn't mean that the leader has the best communication Sometimes they don't Doesn't mean that the leader always knows how to lead and doesn't need to learn more.

Chris M. Lyon: 11:40

But really it's someone who feels safe and feels valued to be the leader, make the decisions and do the guiding, and the other person feels loved and safe to have that structure, to get that direction, to be able to have that to work with. They're both in service to each other. So it will a little bother someone when I find that a lot of dominance or people say they're dominant are all about their partner serving them. And if you look at a lot of these books which there's a lot of great books about the dynamic out there and there are about a lot of specific lifestyles. There are a lot of books out there on disciplining and training the submissive partner. I don't think there are all that many books out there about how to be a better leader. But that's really how it goes. Both partners are with their counterpart and they're doing their part in the dynamic to make it work.

Chris M. Lyon: 12:40

And it really causes like a beautiful connection that just thrives Day to day more and more. There's less power struggles we can talk about that later if you'd like but there are a lot of advantages that DS partners enjoy. I would never, ever suggest that somebody force that on themselves or try to push that on themselves or their partner.

Annette Benedetti: 13:03

So it is two people choosing to be in the role they want to be and looking for their counterpart. I think people who want to be the submissive in a partnership oftentimes are looking for people to make some of those big decisions and they're like I'm the person that can take that big decision and help you push it through. Like I am the person who is going to help you get that through the door, but you're going to tell me where to go and then I'm going to run with it with all my skills and I can see how that would just be such a stress relieving place to be. Like you give me a direction now I just take my tools and I show you what I can do to make this a success.

Chris M. Lyon: 13:48

Yes, if your relationship orientation is that of a submissive partner. You've just summed it up so well. That's what they want, that's what helps them get things done, that's what helps them feel loved and connected, having that kind of structure. And I can tell you that I've learned more about this relationship and this dynamic from submissive partners than anyone else by far. In fact, I've learned more in my life from submissive partners than anyone else by far. In fact, submissive partners are some of the greatest, most amazing, powerful leaders in the world, and then you know what a lot of time they go getters their decision makers, their leaders, and then, at the end of the day, when it comes to their relationship, they just want to soft place to lay their head and they don't want to have to be bothered to make the decisions. They want that structure in place.

Annette Benedetti: 14:43

Right, and this is a beautiful segue into what I want to do next, which is talking about the personality traits, the real personality traits of DOMs and submissives. And I want to start with the submissive, because I don't think people really understand what a true submissive personality is like. So I want to start with a quote that I pulled from the book that really struck me and like spoke and I don't know what I am, I'm just going to put that out to you. I think that this was something that really struck me while I was reading some of the personality traits you listed for a submissive. It said decisiveness, direction and guidance from their partner makes them feel secure and loved. That guidance and decisiveness is what makes them feel secure and loved, and that just those words leapt off the page to me and I thought that makes so much sense.

Annette Benedetti: 16:00

You know, in a relationship with someone, I think sometimes we get into relationships and we don't understand why we aren't feeling secure or why we aren't feeling loved. They brought me roses, they told me I'm pretty and I was like God damn, like this makes sense. I want to dive into. You know, that was just something that left out to me, but I'd like you to dive deeper into the submissive personality.

Chris M. Lyon: 16:26

Well, what you read was what I've heard from literally tens of thousands of submissive partners, clients, followers, readers, etc. And that's huge for them and usually that would leap out at someone who would tend to be more on the spectrum of the submissive side versus the dominant side. That wouldn't leap out for a dominant partner so much. You know what I'm saying. But as far as the submissive partner, I think for me, what I want people to know, number one is not all submissive partners are submissive people. I really want to underline that. They are, again, incredibly powerful, amazing people. They are good at leading, but again, their relationship orientation leads them to be that follower in the relationship. They are really good at picking up the nuances in the relationship. They're very good at anticipating their partner. There are so many things that they, so many strengths that they bring to their relationship and the leading. They're also the biggest source of learning for the leading partner, for the dominant partner, because people don't realize this.

Chris M. Lyon: 17:47

But they will guide their partner. They will guide them. They will bring things up to them. They will come to them and explain their point of view or how they see things. They'll ask questions that are really thought provoking. They will guide the leading partner, and people don't realize that. So a lot of them again, their leaders. They're independent people, they're strong people. They're not all submissive people Many of them are not and they can guide their leader. Their leader can learn from them. So people think that they're wishy-washy or they're weak or they can't make their own decisions. This is that's just not true. This is a relationship orientation. It's very real for them. Unfortunately, another thing about them is that they they can tend to think that someone is a dominant partner when they're not.

Annette Benedetti: 18:34

Yeah, so there's a whole little recipe for that.

Chris M. Lyon: 18:37

But that is actually one of the biggest problems that I've seen in DS relationships. They think someone may be a dominant partner and it's just not the case. That's that that caused a lot of pain and suffering, unfortunately.

Annette Benedetti: 18:52

Yeah, I was. I was also looking through your social media doing my research and I had seen there was this piece about how the submissive will dive into the research and start doing all of the research on the really or what I and I think it could be in anything like the dominance, as we're doing this, and then you're like, all right, I'm going to make it happen. You're doing the research, blah, blah, blah, and then your partner, who's in the lead position, just doesn't like it, doesn't do anything with it.

Chris M. Lyon: 19:28

And here you are, yeah, ouch. So what happens is, if the submissive partner doesn't have a dominant partner who's actually leading and working to be a better leader, the submissive partner will go out and do the research for them and then they'll try to do the work for them, and then they'll end up taking over the leadership position in the relationship when that's the last thing they wanted to do. But they do it to save the relationship, waiting for something to happen, waiting for it to take, and when they do the leadership position, the other partner doesn't go along with it, so it's very painful. That's why I warn people about your betting making sure that your partner is a dominant partner, because a lot of times a submissive partner has to end up taking over when that's just it's heartbreaking to see that so yeah, yeah, it would make sense.

Annette Benedetti: 20:26

I think I have a very dominant personality. I definitely do, and I also am someone who obviously I've led a lot of things in my professional life and stuff like that, and so I could see how easily, even though I think when it comes to intimate relationships for sure, I have a strong preference to be in the sub role. It's easy then if things aren't going the way you want them to be, like all right, but I also have all of the skills that it takes to push something along which then suddenly you're in the leading role, right.

Annette Benedetti: 21:08

Then you're yeah, then you're like oh, I'm just being a dumb again.

Chris M. Lyon: 21:12

Yeah, yeah, bummer, yeah, that's interesting.

Annette Benedetti: 21:16

So some of the most surprising traits of a sub are that they tend to be leaders, naturally in other areas of their life, and powerful people, decision makers but they're looking for love and to experience love and security with a partner who's willing to, when it comes to your personal life, kind of take the lead and give them a break there. So that's interesting. Well then, what is the dominant personality tend to be?

Chris M. Lyon: 21:50

Well, people are surprised about this too Dominant partners I have found to be. A lot of them are sensitive people. They're sensitive people. They're very private and they question themselves a lot. They are, they have. They're very conscientious people. They're looking out for their partner and their family you know them and theirs to look out for them and protect them. They do second guess themselves. They can be hard on themselves. They are very sensitive. They can get their feelings hurt. And again, they are much more private people and especially about their relationship. You'll find that when you see people really flashing their relationship and just going on about it, you know accusably a lot of times it's the submissive partner and the dominant partner is being pretty quiet about it.

Chris M. Lyon: 22:45

So it's interesting because a lot of dominant partners really aren't so much about show voting as much and a lot of times they're not domineering and a lot of times in their lives they're good followers. They respect leadership. So there's that not saying that they aren't leaders in other areas of their lives, because some of them are, but I think they respect the structure and are able to work as a team player. They don't need to always be the boss, they don't need to be domineering, they don't need to push people around. So you'll see a dominant partner in life a lot of times isn't trying to take over in their friends' lives and other people's lives or at work. A lot of times they're good team players, from what I've seen.

Annette Benedetti: 23:30

Yeah, so would you say. I think there are some misconceptions. Maybe I'm wrong in saying that that people who are doms tend to be like alpha personalities. Is that true?

Chris M. Lyon: 23:46

You know, there are a lot of submissive partners that are alpha personalities out in the world and there are some dominates that are alpha personalities out in the world. From what I've seen, the more someone who says they're a dominant partner, the more they assert their alpha self out amongst other people. To me, the less of a dominant that I would think they are, because they're needing to go and force that on people. So I think either partner can be an alpha, absolutely, but if you look at you, know they've done studies on pack leaders and they're saying some of that research was wrong.

Chris M. Lyon: 24:25

But I think that dominant leaders like to be the head of the, the family, the head of the pack and do the leading. I think that's where they feel they belong, and I don't think that they fit real well elsewhere.

Annette Benedetti: 24:39

What is one of the most surprising traits of a dominant personality? Is there something that stands out to you that's like? This is something nobody would suspect they'd see in a dom?

Chris M. Lyon: 24:52

They can, they can have, they can be wrapped around their submissive finger. They also show their belly to their submissive partner. They can be very vulnerable. They have a hard time showing that because if they show vulnerability or they show a question in their leadership, it may make their submissive partner think less of them or maybe question their ability to lead. But the other thing too is they lean on their partner and when they lean, they can lean hard and people people don't realize that, but they're, they're people too and they can get, they're feeling sort of too. They can get abused as well and mistreated by their partner. But yeah, when they lean, they lean hard and it's. It's tough for them to be vulnerable when they are. It's a beautiful thing with their, that's what they're the submissive partners are like I'm not only, can I handle it, let's do. I want that, you know I, they, they accept all of their partner. So I think it's it's pretty beautiful.

Annette Benedetti: 25:54

So there are a number of surprising things about dominant partners.

Chris M. Lyon: 25:56

People don't wouldn't guess initially.

Annette Benedetti: 25:59

Right. Well, how can you be a dominant partner or a leader if you don't have anyone to lead? So you know your submissive becomes. It would seem to me correct me if I'm wrong, I am definitely not the expert that the dominant is super dependent on their submissive for that role, for like being whole in that role, right?

Chris M. Lyon: 26:22

Absolutely, absolutely.

Annette Benedetti: 26:25

So now we have sort of a framework of what the different personality traits are for dominant and submissive people. I think the next logical place to go is what if someone's like, okay, now I know that, how do I know? If I want to be in a dominant and submissive relationship, what are some of the perks to being and this is within your personal life folks? This means you've come together with somebody and you've decided hey, you know, as we build our life together, I kind of want you in this position and I want to be in this position and you have agreed, both of you. That's the way it's going to go.

Annette Benedetti: 27:09

And understand, in any relationship and you mentioned this in your book there is, either said or unsaid, a choosing of roles, right, and I would argue, most often people aren't even mapping that out. People aren't having a verbal communication about what is my role in this relationship, what is yours. And I am imagining after reading this book which I hadn't thought about this at all before, because I've certainly never sat down with a long-term partner and discussed our role that that's probably the cause of a lot of issues in relationships Nobody knows who's doing what, maybe Right. So this is an agreement with clear roles. Let's talk about all of the benefits to entering into this kind of relationship.

Chris M. Lyon: 28:02

Well, it's beneficial if you are that partner type. If you're not that partner type, not so beneficial. So, and this is like the kind of partner that someone is, regardless of like religious beliefs or any kind of early indoctrination this is really their natural inclination as a partner.

Annette Benedetti: 28:25

So the benefits are great.

Chris M. Lyon: 28:27

You know, when you find your counterpart, it's good fit. There is a closeness that's hard to describe. There's an understanding, and the reason there's such a this closeness and understanding in this way between the two people is that they're generally in healthy relationships that are dominant, submissive. There is less of a power struggle. Someone's not questioning the other, they're not trying to take over a certain role or responsibility, and you're right, A lot of times this happens without people really going over it and talking about it. They just find somebody, you know, that feels like their counterpart. The other person is great and just there's this organic development of their relationship and both partners are loving what they're getting from the other one and the role that they're in, what they're able to give. They love it. It's just it feels like home. There's this great home, great understanding. There's great bond. It's a special bond, I believe. And then the power struggles just they're not an issue like they would be in another relationship.

Chris M. Lyon: 29:39

So, there's more of a. I believe there's more of a and people say you know, I need more structure and some people say I don't want as much structure in their relationship, but there's more of an automatic knowing of where you're supposed to go and what you're supposed to be doing and if you're supposed to be checking in or any of that. If you have a dominant partner that would like a submissive partner to behave a certain way in public, right, and they say a couple of those things to their submissive partner. A lot of times a submissive partner is going to be like great, that'll make us feel more connected and you know I'm looking forward to it. A lot of times, submissive partners come to the dominant partners and say you know, I'd like to ask if I can go to the restroom when we're out in public. If you can, let me know you can give me permission and I'd like that to happen.

Chris M. Lyon: 30:21

Some people don't care about that. There are other things about ordering food and all kinds of cool stuff you can come up with, right. That keeps both in their place with each other. So you know how people in relationships get out of their place with the other one and they get out of that connectedness with the other. The structure that a DS couple has by nature keeps them in that space of the partner type that they are. You know, serving the other one in the way that they do Is it hard to put into words, but it's a pretty easy dynamic. Once you have two, that you know someone who's really a dominant, someone's really commissive, it comes pretty naturally and I think people are surprised about it.

Annette Benedetti: 31:05

I think people may seem a little strange to some people, but I think it's fantastic. I think in your book way you said maybe you quoted someone else, but one of the comparisons was to a dance like that dynamic, working in a relationship like people I can't remember maybe doing the tango or something like dance partners, knowing you know what to do because one person's leading and one person's following and together you're moving together to create this beautiful dance, right?

Annette Benedetti: 31:39

Yes, and the minute you know the person following starts trying to lead, or vice versa. You got this show on your hand, right Like no longer are you creating a beautiful dance, someone's toes are getting stepped on or you're disconnecting from each other.

Chris M. Lyon: 31:54

Yes, yeah, Think about it. Have you ever tried to learn how to dance with somebody who, if you want to be led, they couldn't lead? Or if you're trying to lead, they're not following? It is, it is. So it doesn't look so good on the dance floor, but, you're right, it disconnects, it does, and it's awkward. It doesn't have so much of a fit, but, boy, is there a wonderful flow when it's matched up and you see people doing this. You see, in these people who are dancing together, professional dancers or experienced ones, they already know who will lead and who will follow. And it's just, it's beautiful and it's. There's really no way to do it, except for having both partners be clear on who they are to the other one.

Annette Benedetti: 32:41

Yeah, and that does sound nice. I think when I look at the struggles I've had in relationships throughout my life, it's, uh yeah, the lack of clarity around, or you know, even not knowing, that sometimes you disconnect from your partner and you're like I don't even know why. Right, but you didn't really know what was making it work in the first place, what your role was right.

Annette Benedetti: 34:05

So in this relationship style, it is clear. So something we should have mentioned up front and we did not, but we will do it now is this is not a gender. These roles are not gender dependent, right? Can we clarify that for listeners? This is not like the man is always the uh Dom. I mean this. It goes for all genders all sexuality, 100%, yes, okay. Absolutely.

Chris M. Lyon: 34:31

That's what I'm saying. Is that a lot of times people say you know, the man should lead, the man should lead, and I know some people believe that and I can fight about it, but then there are men who are really good at following in the relationship. That's what they want.

Chris M. Lyon: 34:46

And then there's so much shame associated with that because of what people are telling them and that's unfortunate. And the same thing with women who are leaders, who are dominance. It's unfortunate, it should. It's again. It's a relationship orientation and whatever kind of gender or whatever life you're in, or if you're vanilla or kinky or any of that, it's still your relationship orientation and I urge people to honor that.

Annette Benedetti: 35:11

Relationship orientation. I like that. What are some of the drawbacks to being in a dominant submissive relationship?

Chris M. Lyon: 35:24

You know the drawbacks from a relationship that actually has a dominant submissive partner. There could be the same thing as another relationship where they're both. You know they may not have learned how to have a healthy relationship. Sometimes dominant partners don't know how to communicate as well, and so they kind of will shut down the communication and the submissive partner is suffering and the relationship suffers. A lot of times the submissive partner won't want to bring issues to their dominant. They won't want to come to them and tell them they're having these issues and they'd like to have changes made, because they feel like they're what topping from the bottom, feel like they don't want to be the ones in control, but then the dominant can't read their mind, so they are obligated to bring that to their partner, just like if there was a problem with the ship, the first mate needs to report that to the captain.

Chris M. Lyon: 36:16

You can't just look at it and well you know captain's come across it. That's one, but what I have seen, that are some of the biggest problems. Trouble areas for DS partners are people on the outside, and this would be in a couple of different areas. Number one therapists, mental health practitioners. A lot of them don't understand it and a lot of them have a strong bias against it, which is really really unfortunate and harmful.

Annette Benedetti: 36:47

Now some of them get it.

Chris M. Lyon: 36:49

I've had some people some of my readers bring their books to their therapist and say ask them to read it. And they did and it helped. I've heard too many stories of people saying you know, I went to my therapist about some problems in my life and it wasn't about my relationship and my relationship is fine, right, dominic Smith's relationship and the therapist warned me about the relationship and told me I shouldn't be in that kind of relationship. That's harmful. So a lot of therapists who may not understand the dynamic. That could be a problem. So people out in the outside will be friends and loved ones who don't understand, who are worried for one of the partners. Usually it's a miss a partner or they've just lost control and influence over this person and they don't like the fact that somebody else is a bigger influence.

Chris M. Lyon: 37:43

They don't like it at all. So a lot of times they'll be judgmental or they'll be negative towards the partner or the relationship or everyone both involved and they'll take shots at them and they won't be as accepting and that caused a lot again, again, hurt and harm. So from what I've seen, these are some of the biggest struggles, and I think the biggest struggle is when one of the partners is not a real DS partner and that's a real mess. That's a big problem. So but yeah, those are some of the biggest problems.

Annette Benedetti: 38:18

Yeah, I think a couple of thoughts come to mind when you talk about people on the outside. I think there are a couple of things. I think that especially and I believe you touched on this in the book if it is the woman who's decided in this relationship, I want to be in the submissive role that people can be very like. Oh, you're not being, I thought you were a feminist. Like no feminist would want to be submissive in a relationship, and so people will make that woman feel bad or like, and then I can imagine you'd also have questions within yourself like oh my God, I am a feminist, but I don't really. I really want to, in my relationship, have my partner lead. What are your thoughts around that?

Chris M. Lyon: 39:15

Well, I think it's unfortunate, because if you're a feminist like the definition of being a feminist isn't telling other people how to have their relationships. So if you're seeing a woman who's happy in their relationship and they feel loved to me, I think you want to celebrate that and that'd be something that we appreciate seeing. So I always have to look at where the other person's coming from when they're having a problem with their relationship. It's usually the problem within themselves and not the real relationship, and also with men too. Oh, you're supposed to be leading, you're supposed to be making the decisions.

Chris M. Lyon: 39:50

I believe that most households in the world are run by women, that people are just quiet about it, and a lot of women and men try to make it look otherwise. So they are accepted by society. It makes them feel safer to act like the man's in charge. Now, I know a lot of households the men are in charge. I get it, but I've just seen too much and heard too much to know that there are an awful lot of women out there leading and making it look like the man's leading the household. I think anyone, whoever the best leader, should be it. So I don't have any bias either way with that, but I just think that people shouldn't be judging any gender at all for being either type of partner.

Chris M. Lyon: 40:39

A lot of people can shame dominance. I've seen family members shame dominant partners, and some of them because they're women.

Annette Benedetti: 40:48

So that's just very unfortunate.

Chris M. Lyon: 40:50

And that's why you have to work really hard not to let some of the outside influences affect your relationship and make sure that you're really holding close the good influences for you. So but I wrote this book to help people understand. I wrote this book to help other people explain to their loved ones. You can sit down with your friend and say, hey, I actually chose this because this is the kind of partner I am, this is who I am and I chose them. And a lot of times the submissive partner does the pursuing.

Annette Benedetti: 41:21

I chose them. Yeah for sure.

Chris M. Lyon: 41:25

Right. So I chose them. They didn't force it, I chose them and I chose this and I'm happy with it. And I'd like you to respect that. Even if you don't fully understand it, even if you don't accept it with open arms, I'd like you to respect it and guess what? I'll do the same for you, for your relationship.

Annette Benedetti: 41:44

Right. I think that the problem is there's a lot of stigma that come with each role, right. People see dominance as this one kind of personality and subs as this other, as opposed to seeing the beauty in both roles, the strengths and weaknesses in both roles. And they're two people that find each other and, like you know, they fit like a little puzzle piece or little Lego, right. It's like the things that you need, I've got, the things I need, you've gotten. We click together in it's and both roles are powerful and important and vital to healthy relationship, right, and certainly either role can be abused, correct? I think that you also talk about that a bit as well.

Chris M. Lyon: 42:31

Yes, and I've seen a lot of, an awful lot of that as well. But yeah, when they fit like that, it's beautiful and I wish people wouldn't judge it. I wanted more people to understand the dynamic and I want people to understand it's more mainstream than you think. I talk about celebrities that are dominant in the subpartners.

Chris M. Lyon: 43:54

I have a bunch of vanilla clients who are dominant in the subpartners, even to the point of some of them are almost like master's slave relationships or own and own relationship, and they don't even think that way. But that's how they're doing it, similar to what people do when they're in those lifestyles. It's crazy that people would be sitting in judgment of that and people would be looking at it, saying okay it's bad because it's not what I'm doing, or.

Chris M. Lyon: 44:21

But a lot of people look at it and say, wow, I wish I had that. So I'm kind of pissed that they have it and we really can't do much about that except distance ourselves from those kinds of people. But there is, I think they're, and I appreciate what you're doing here, because I think there is definitely some dialogue to be had on this topic to help bring people more into understanding, because if you're not a DS partner, you have people in your life that you love who are yeah, all right, let's talk about the sex you mentioned earlier.

Annette Benedetti: 44:53

We're at that point in the podcast and, unusually, like this whole podcast, sometimes can just be sex, sex, sex. But now we're getting to the sex part, because I really think this is the primer, for you know, the icing on the cake. So you mentioned that. Well, first of all, let's make it clear not all Dom sub relationship orientations right, that's what we're calling it turn into kinky Dom subs stuff in the bedroom. Not all of it, true, that is true. Do they more often than not do that in the bedroom? Do you know? Did you get any stats on that?

Chris M. Lyon: 45:30

out of curiosity, I've heard a lot. Like I said, there are an awful lot of vanilla people who are very happy. Dom and Simpsons partners in relationships or outside relationships. They just are not interested in anything going to those levels at all.

Annette Benedetti: 45:47

Whatever, of course, I know, yeah, I know right All right whatever. Blame. Well, that's fine.

Chris M. Lyon: 45:53

Of course, I know that there are a ton of people who are kinky and are into this kind of like awesome and these intense experiences with their partner right that some people will never, unfortunately, experience. There are many, many, many of them who are. Ds partners. Absolutely, and so and the dynamic is interesting because yes, the dominant is still in control, but it doesn't mean that the submissive partner can't be more sexually aggressive.

Annette Benedetti: 46:27

Right. So when you got to the sex portion, I did not skip forward. I was very proud of myself. I waited to get there of the book. There were some kind of interesting things that you shared, and one of them was that sometimes it's the sub that's like, hey, let's do it. And so you did say at the beginning that you felt like this dynamic could like add extra spice to the kink relationship. Do you wanna share?

Chris M. Lyon: 47:02

Oh, of course I can, because you take these beautiful dynamics between these two people, where they have this amazing connection right and the relationship thrives the more that they honor the structure of the relationship.

Annette Benedetti: 47:14

And even if they honor the changes they make to it that are exciting.

Chris M. Lyon: 47:17

Can you take that to? An intimate side, you take that to the bedroom. There are all kinds of things you can do, even if one partner, even if the submissive partner, is the more creative one, because they can talk to their dominant partner about what they maybe would like to try, or hey, have you ever thought of it? That happens so much. Sometimes the submissive partner is more creative.

Annette Benedetti: 47:40

Sometimes the dominant partner is either way.

Chris M. Lyon: 47:42

But they're able to have this communication because they have a safety right and security and then they take that in through this amazing sexual life and intensity and it's great because nobody is really nobody's really threatened. They're not really threatened because they both know who they are to each other and the roles they play right, and so they come from that place and it doesn't really change much.

Annette Benedetti: 48:07

Do they tend to keep the role that they're in in the relationship through to sex or does it sometimes switch and, like the Dom, plays a sub role for a little bit in bed?

Chris M. Lyon: 48:18

Well, as far as kink is concerned, it just depends what someone's kink is. Right, you've got to have dominance, saying hey, I always wanted a submissive to try this on me, or whatever right. I believe that for the most part in the kinky life of dominant submissive partners that the dominant remains in control and that they're making the decisions anyway, even if they're on the bottom. And yes, I mean, let's get into it. And it's like I didn't write about these details and all of these things in the book about sex. I did mention it but I really didn't go into detail about it on purpose because I wanted the book to be specifically or mostly about the relationship itself and the foundation of the relationship.

Chris M. Lyon: 49:04

But you can have the most wild, freaky submissive, that's completely all over the dominant like aggressively and have like a good old time for both. But again there's still the submissive partner and the other one's still the dominant and nobody feels like that has changed. It's just the sexual energy they're using. As far as topping and bottoming, I don't really hear about many dominant partners who want to bottom or about many submissive partners who want to top. You know, unless there's witches, but that's not on any decided spectrum.

Chris M. Lyon: 49:45

So I think that you know, if that's the case that there's some of them that don't want to do that, great, but I don't hear about it very much. I think they kind of stay. I think the dominance are often the tops from what I've been talking with people about it and the submissive like to be the bottom. It doesn't mean that again that the dominant can't receive sexually and submissive can't be giving sexually.

Annette Benedetti: 50:11

I mean, that's just submissive partners.

Chris M. Lyon: 50:13

I mean, come on, they're not shy and they're not weak. So, and the thing about submissive partners they know what they want and they go after it.

Annette Benedetti: 50:21

Yeah, I think that's surprising. I think a lot of people think of submissives as being like shy and weak and like and that's even how they're portrayed a lot in, you know, in media.

Chris M. Lyon: 50:32

True.

Annette Benedetti: 50:33

And I don't yeah, I don't see that a lot with people that. I know that want that role. So I just think that whatever people are gonna do in their relationship.

Chris M. Lyon: 50:43

Whatever's gonna work for them, they're gonna do it. If the dominates the dominant, they're gonna remain the dominant. If the submissive the submissive, they're gonna remain the submissive. And that's what they're both gonna want and they're each gonna want, and they can many of them. I've heard many stories. They get, they have a good old freaky time and they do it their way and we love that, we celebrate that.

Annette Benedetti: 51:02

Yeah, for sure. Now, I guess the way to sum this up is, for listeners and myself, what is a good way to start telling what you are yourself, and maybe when you're eyeing someone else like, hey, what?

Chris M. Lyon: 51:16

might they be you and I could probably do yeah, we could probably do a whole hour on bedding. I mean, wow, there's so much to say, there's so much that goes wrong. It's crazy. The biggest problem for submissive partners is they see someone who they think is confident and knows what they want and they, because of their relationship orientation, they unconsciously and often consciously feel that this is a dominant. This is for me, even if they don't identify as submissive partner, which I've seen that a lot too.

Annette Benedetti: 51:53

Because they don't even know about it. But, I've seen this and then later on it ends up.

Chris M. Lyon: 51:57

The person is just selfish and domineering. They seem confident, know what they want, know they'd be great leader, know they were selfish and domineering, and the submissive partner ends up being the parent or getting into the leadership position. It's horrible and I've seen families that are hurt by this, that are just devastated, shattered from it. I've seen people that go through this for 10, 20, 30 years not having realized what the problem is. So vetting is very, very important. Just because you're attracted to someone doesn't mean that they know how to be a leader in the relationship or they even want to be. Then you have the submissives that get attracted to someone if they think you're a leader and that person ends up being. This is a surprise, this is a little curve. They end up being a submissive partner. They're trying to please their partner and trying to act like the leader and they don't do the greatest job because it doesn't come naturally and it doesn't make them happy.

Annette Benedetti: 52:52

It's a submissive faking being dominant. Is that what you're saying? Yeah, because the other submissive chose them to.

Chris M. Lyon: 52:59

Yeah, the other submissive the submissive partner's like oh, you're gonna be and I'm gonna hold you to all these things. I had a client that literally told me, after 15 years of marriage I think it was 15 or more my husband told me yeah, I never wanted to do that, yeah.

Annette Benedetti: 53:17

I was like oh man, so vetting, vetting.

Chris M. Lyon: 53:21

You've got to have the conversations. You can't just guess. And another important thing about vetting is that if you're a submissive partner and you're looking for a dominant partner and you have somebody that you are talking to or messaging, don't message. Don't message like you're in a relationship, just don't do that. There's so many reasons. We can talk on that forever too. But if you're talking or messaging and the other person's telling you hey, send me these kind of pictures, call me this, call me this title, do this for me when we meet, you're gonna do this and this, and that they're either a predator or they're highly uneducated and not a leader in the relationship.

Chris M. Lyon: 54:00

Because what real dominates do for the most part, a dominant will be asking questions and sitting back and listening for the answers and seeing if this is really a fit for them as a commitment that they need to step into as the leader. It's a commitment, so they're kind of seeing if that's a fit. If the people are already telling you what to do ahead of time, that's not being a leader in the relationship. They don't have a right to that. They shouldn't be doing that. So they're not your dominant until there's a commitment, you know, or commitment meaning if you've decided that you're gonna be exclusive or any of that kind of thing. But there needs to be some really rigorous vetting for that. And I do teach vetting and I do have a course on DS relationships and vetting. But yeah, that's super important to do your vetting and not just assume that they are. You have to have the conversations about it.

Annette Benedetti: 54:53

And how do you know? Let's say you know someone's thinking to themselves well, I think I'm a sub and I think I wanna find. How do you know what you are? Are there any tips? I know that it's a whole topic. I'm asking you to you know, in a very limited time, tell me a lot, but at least for listeners, a couple tips tonight, as they're sitting at home digesting this and they're like I think this is what I am. How can you start to like solidify, whether you are not either a Dom or a sub?

Chris M. Lyon: 55:28

Right. I think people get confused about that because they say well, I make decisions in my job and I lead and I have a strong personality, so I may be dominant. So, first of all, keep the rest of your life and your relationship apart. Okay, separate those two. Then look at what you've been attracted to, or who you've been attracted to. Has it been someone who's a follower or a leader, or seems that they would be a follower, leader to you? What has excited you? Someone who's submissive or dominant? Now, if you're a submissive partner, what's excited you? People you've looked up to, have been attracted to, have been people that you would like to be a leader. You'd like to have them as a leader and that's a reason that you're attracted to them. But there's also another way. I have the profile points in my book and you can review those and see if most of those are points that you would relate to but,

Chris M. Lyon: 56:20

not necessarily in relationships you've had In really what you want and who you feel you are, because some people have been in relationships that weren't right for them. So don't do it according to your life and your relationships, like your job and your relationships. Look at the profile points according to really who you are and what you want and how you really naturally are. There's that, and then also I have a little hack. It's kind of fun, it's what I will ask someone who may. I'm thinking maybe it's been a DS partner and I've done this with clients and I said okay well imagine that someone that you're dating or somebody you're

Annette Benedetti: 56:57

serious with your partner, or whatever calls you up and says look I want you to be ready by six o'clock.

Chris M. Lyon: 57:01

Get all dressed up, ready to go. We're going out. We're gonna have a great time. I'll take care of everything. We're gonna have a blast, okay. Normally when I say this, the missive partners. Their faces light up and they're like oh, and they like it. They like they've got like a visceral response to it Like oh, that sounds so good.

Annette Benedetti: 57:20

I would love that A lot of dominant partners like hmm, I don't know what do you mean Give me some details?

Chris M. Lyon: 57:31

And I've seen that and it's you know there's exceptions to the rule, but in general I've seen submissive partner spaces light up over and over and over because yes, that's now dominant partners. No, they don't necessarily want that, so that's a little hack. But the profile points help as well. But really separate your relationship how you want to be in a relationship and who you want to be in the relationship apart from your life and see how that feels to you. Does it feel submissive or dominant?

Annette Benedetti: 58:03

I like that. That's a good hack. That's a good hack.

Chris M. Lyon: 58:09

I use that for so many years with my clients.

Annette Benedetti: 58:11

I think that it surprises people like I. Actually, I love it when I go out to dinner and someone will pick food out for me. I mean, I can also eat almost anything. So I'm like, take me on an adventure, man, Just pick, cause I will sit there for hours cause I love food so much and try and figure out what I want. And if someone's just like this and this, I'm like heaven.

Chris M. Lyon: 58:37

That and I have heard that 50,000 times from submissive partners. They're like I love that. I thought they, I want, yes, I want you to choose. For me, it means so much that they don't have to worry about making those bullshit decisions.

Annette Benedetti: 58:50

They don't want to, they don't want to be bothered.

Chris M. Lyon: 58:53

Well, a dominant partner loves and loves that. They're like, yeah, that I'm going to decide. It's kind of it's service and it's exciting that way. But dominant partner, pointing out what you want them to eat, not so much.

Annette Benedetti: 59:06

Right. Isn't that funny. If you spin it and look at it that way, that's actually the dominant partner doing work, like doing work for you. They're picking stuff. You're just kicking back and relaxing and not working. Someone else is doing that shit for you. Yes, I don't know. Thank you for bringing that up. That's how it feels. Thank you for bringing that up.

Chris M. Lyon: 59:24

Yes, because in a lot of submissive partners are very responsible, independent people and they do all those things. And then they want a place and someone they don't have to do those things with. It. They can trust we'll do that for them. Now, the dominant partners.

Chris M. Lyon: 59:36

Every single time your dominant partner makes these decisions, they are pretty much doing research or thinking about it, asking you questions, determining, putting energy into it and time into it to make those decisions. Please appreciate that. Submissive partners, please let them know how much that's appreciated, because that's energy and in time, they're investing in you and they're going to make you happy. So, yeah, I love how both partners just come together with that one does it and shows up and they then want to appreciate it and it's a beautiful thing.

Annette Benedetti: 1:00:08

I love that, it's a beautiful dynamic, yeah, and I feel like just kind of what we've gone over. If you are questioning, you're kind of like I think I'm submissive or I think I'm dominant, and you put yourself in those situations, you can start to really get an idea of who you might be. But go to the book and I will have links for y'all in the description of this podcast. I'll be sending them out my newsletter so that you can purchase the book. I think it's well worthwhile. I have read it. I again. It sort of set me back in my chair Like the minute. I started really quick too in reading it.

Annette Benedetti: 1:00:50

I was like, oh so it's well worth the while to get it if you are trying to figure out who you want to be in relationships, what kind of relationship orientation you want to have, and then you know, obviously, if you've been thinking about it in the sack. So can you tell my listeners where they can find all the information they might want or need about you and what you're doing?

Chris M. Lyon: 1:01:19

Sure, they can go to coachlioncom, which is L-Y-O-N coachlioncom, and if you'd like to get the book, it is on Amazon, it's on iTunes and it's on Audible. You're right, and they can find any of that out. I am a kink-a-wear professional, so they can go to that directory as well. Cap directory and.

Chris M. Lyon: 1:01:39

I do facilitation with couples. I work with people on coming out of relationships, healing and rallying again and getting ready to do their healing, getting ready for another one. I like to work with people on all levels of their relationship. So yeah, coachlioncom will give you the resources for a lot of that.

Annette Benedetti: 1:02:00

And they can find you on social media too. Right, Because I found you on social media.

Chris M. Lyon: 1:02:04

They can. I'm all over the place, yeah.

Annette Benedetti: 1:02:07

I found you on Instagram and again, I will have links for you all so you can get there, and you've posted lots of great tidbits to give people a taste of what you're doing, and so check her out. I'm really excited about it. I think it's going to help you all out a lot, and you guys know where to find me. You can find me on Facebook and Instagram. Locker Room Talk and Shots. She explores life and you're welcome to join me on my personal Instagram, being Benedetti. I'm on TikTok Locker Room Talk podcast and you can watch this on YouTube and at Benedetti. So that's that. Thank you for joining me, thanks.

Chris M. Lyon: 1:02:49

Anand, it's been a lot.

Annette Benedetti: 1:02:51

Yes, it's been fantastic, and until next time I'll see y'all in the locker room. Cheers, ha, ha ha.

Chris M. Lyon: 1:03:01

Flame.