A Guide to Cuckolding With The Kink Doctor!

This Locker Room Talk & Shots podcast features a conversation about the cuckhold fetish with renowned sex therapist and BDSM expert  Dr. Dulcinea Alex Pitagora (AKA the Kink Doctor). Our discussion dives deep into cuckolding and shines a light on its historical context, power dynamics, and the shifting identities involved. We also talk about the concept of consensual non-consent, and how it fuels the cuckolding role plays. Get ready to redefine the default setting of monogamy. The Kink Doctor brings their expertise to the table, addressing the stigma associated with 'out of the norm' fantasies, and how exploring these can lead to a fulfilling relationship dynamic that caters to both partners.

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Transcript

Annette Benedetti: 0:28

Hi, this is Annette Finnadetti, your hostess for a locker room talk and chocks, the podcast that likes to think of itself as the queer NPR of raunchy women's sex talk. You are about to sit in on the kind of conversations women have on their girls' nights out or behind closed doors, while enjoying delicious drinks and dishing about sex Think fun, honest and feminist as fuck, and always with the goal of fighting the patriarchy. One orgasm at a time. Welcome to the locker room.

Annette Benedetti: 1:08

Today's locker room talk and chocks topic is a guide to cuckolding. So you like to watch your partner get banged? If you are a long time listener, you have likely stumbled across my very popular episode, confessions of a Cuckoo. Now, I don't think the two topics fetishes, kinks are completely related. However, I have someone here today who can clear up any confusion around that. For me, the only way in which I'm an expert in cuckolding is that I have found myself a time or two or three going down the cuckolding porn rabbit hole. I do not know why, but hopefully I will also understand by the end of this conversation why I keep finding myself there and what that's all about.

Annette Benedetti: 1:57

I am excited to introduce my guests to you today. They are Dr Dulcinea Alex Pidegora. They are a New York City based psychotherapist, sex therapist, bdsm expert and community member who primarily works with people with marginalized identities, orientations and relationship structuring as a person who has a trans, non-binary, queer, non-hierarchally poly-BDSM oriented and former sex worker themselves. They became a therapist to work with these communities after experiencing firsthand how difficult it can be to find a therapist who understands and supports intersectionally marginalized identities and lifestyles. Thank you, dr Alex. You're also known as the kink doctor. I'm going to refer to you as the kink doctor today, so could you take the mic for a moment and tell my listeners a little bit more about you?

The Kink Doctor: 2:55

Sure, Thank you. Thank you for that introduction and for having me. I love talking about these kind of topics. So, yeah, I handle kink doctor on social media places and I also made an episode of a show talking about kink and power dynamics and stuff because I love talking about it. You know, due to my own personal involvement in the community and kink lifestyle and power dynamics, like you kind of mentioned that. So I am a New York City based psychotherapist and sex therapist. I also do supervision for early career sex therapists and therapists and I do a fair amount of you know, activism inside projects. I teach sexual health at NYU. I organize a community listserv called Manhattan Alternative which is actually going nationwide, so all sorts of it's going to be a place to find kink positive and sex positive therapists everywhere. Right now it's a New York only, but we're just changing that up. That's a smattering of things I do, I guess, and who I am. So there you go.

Annette Benedetti: 4:03

Yeah, so you definitely have the background that we need to learn about this topic, because I think this topic comes with a lot of stigma and sort of fear for some people. So, listeners, if you're just curious, great. If you're wanting to dip your toe in the water and give this kink a try, please stay to the end because we will, as always, do our takeaways and give you some tips so that you can start playing, however you want to play, after you finish this episode. I am joined today with my guest for coffee. It is early for me I guess it's 10am. It shouldn't be early, but it is. I just want to let y'all know I'm having coffee and I'm actually having coffee from a local Portland roaster and they are called Gay Awakening and I got their Cheers Queers because I felt like it totally works into my themed podcast. So I am excited to be cheers-ing with you with my Gay Awakening.

The Kink Doctor: 5:10

So cheers.

Annette Benedetti: 5:11

Let's talk about sex. Let's do it, let's just dive into it. Let's just start with what is cuckolding Like. What is it Exactly?

The Kink Doctor: 5:21

Right. So what is it exactly? So I have this thing where I can give a caveat for almost everything right, and I believe these terms have like a common understanding, which I'm promising to say in a second. But also it really depends on the individual right and how they define their sexuality or their preferences and the partners who they're having sex with or playing with or whatever. So that caveat aside, I might repeat caveats like that as a spoiler.

The Kink Doctor: 5:54

So cuckolding is a type of a scene. I call it a role play. Others really identify with the roles in it and feel like it's more of an orientation, but I think of it as a role play where there's a certain power dynamic involved and the power dynamic is typically historically where there's more of it's a pretty much honestly, the genders and orientations like orientations not so much, but genders tend to be pretty heteronormative. Just, I'm talking about the classic definition, right, without any judgment or values. This is saying the words right. So tends to be a dominant woman, cis woman, let's say, for the sake of historical accuracy For this definition, but like, let's say, dominant woman who has a partner who's more submissive, or beta male beta male's phrase often used, being like lower version, less important, submissive, whatever you know, however, that person identifies honestly and that beta male who's her partner gets off on watching her have sex with someone who's typically like a dominant man, right, and that's that tends to be the scenario.

The Kink Doctor: 7:14

So usually there are three people involved in this role play, but honestly it can be between, you know, two people, a couple, and it can be just like verbally talking about these other things too. So it doesn't have to be necessarily you know an enacted role play where two people are having sex and one person is watching. It can be also like a verbalized fantasy, but does that feel comprehensive enough for now?

The Kink Doctor: 7:40

I mean there are other like terms that go along with it and stuff which we can talk about.

Annette Benedetti: 7:44

but Right, yeah, so my understanding has been that traditionally speaking, it was a cisgendered man an a cisgendered woman, and the kind of the role play was that she was forcing him to watch her have sex with another cisgendered man. Now, I'm Right, I had that was sort of my follow-up question, Like whenever I get into these kinks, and I know that they quote traditionally come from very like cis heteronormative roles. Of course, we know that time has gone by and that has changed. So it seems to me, and I was going to ask you that now it just seems to be the importance of it. Is it someone with a vulva having someone with a penis or a cock watch them have sex with someone? Or that's what I'm curious about.

The Kink Doctor: 8:41

I love getting into the yeah, I love getting into, like you know, dissecting all of this and I appreciate it also you mentioning that it's supposed to be where she is forcing him to watch and so I agree Like that's kind of the narrative arc of the role play and I think the reason why I said, like you know, the beta male gets off on it is, quite frankly, like in my history, my former job as a sex worker I was a prodom and when I heard a client who is a man coming in to say like I want to do a cuckolding role play which you know those were usually fantasies and like verbal, you know stories, but he was saying that because he gets off on it and like pretty much any man I've ever talked to, who's the beta, who's into this scene, is certainly getting off on it. So the forced aspect of it can be like part of the role play, but it's typically like not actually forced Because, as we know, in kink and BDSM in role plays they're always consensual and they're not actually forced but like certainly the premise of, you know, the idea of being forced can excite people and that's part of it. So I want I'm glad you said that because I love elaborating on stuff like that In terms of like, historically, like who the, the people are, that we, you know, think of things, you know, think of role plays, really that the reason why it might be thought of as before and then having evolved, is I don't know if that's true, but the statistical majority of people are cis people, and so these are the people most talking about things and often who are listened to and who are more visible, even in our marginalized and even in the kink community. That's the more. That's the dominant narrative, no pun intended.

The Kink Doctor: 10:30

So you know it doesn't mean that other identities and other types of genital configurations top or bottom or whatever haven't always been involved or interested. It's just like usually we don't hear about them or talk about them as much, and so, but yeah for sure, it's typically what you described, as you know, cis women or someone with a vulva and you know, etc. Other genitalia that you mentioned. So I remember all of them, I promise, but I'm not repeating so but yeah, but I mean nowadays I think, because of the internet, largely like there are more safe forums for people of different identities and genders and etc to talk, and so we are hearing more about all sorts of configurations and I've certainly, you know, had you know, heard about people talking about cuckolding with, like you know, lesbians cuckolding. Everyone's got a vulva, unless they're lesbian with a penis, which is totally a possible thing.

The Kink Doctor: 11:29

I guess I'm thinking of specific people and everyone in the room had a vulva and you know they were doing a cuckolding scene, and so to me it's less important about, like, the premise and maybe the way I'm thinking about it more broadly is the power dynamic and, you know, probably showing a little bit of my own preferences and the way I define King, which is, I love thinking about power dynamics and, honestly, outside of King too, I think it's so interesting, but I really believe this particular roleplay is like, integral to it is the power dynamic and that's the thing that's kind of always involved. The other things can change, right, like the words that you use to describe people, what they're doing, what their genitalia is like, how they. You know how the roleplay is set up, but it's typically the power dynamic, is the central focus of the roleplay.

Annette Benedetti: 12:20

All right, that makes sense, because it seems that anybody could play into cuckolding, regardless of the gender.

The Kink Doctor: 12:27

It seems to me Leigh, and again it's so uncertain about like you know, the penis going in the vagina as being like integral right, like we think about that as being true because we live in a world that positions that is true. We live in a phallocentric society, which is that's what that means, but it's not necessarily the case. Anything could happen and, like a dildo can go in there, or nothing could go in there. If we're talking about penetration, there doesn't even have to be genitalia involved or penetration or holes at all involved. It could be entire, like any. That's what I love about kink and exploring it and roleplaces that anything could happen. Anything everybody agrees to and consents to can happen, which is, of course, awesome.

Annette Benedetti: 13:05

So yeah, I think it's funny. We talk about on this podcast a lot the difficulty people have imagining that sex isn't a penis going into a vagina Like. It's so challenging for people to understand that that you can have this cuckolding dynamic and it could have nothing to do with that. It's more from my understanding and please correct me if I'm wrong someone being quote forced and I'll talk about that in a second with you to watch their partner fuck someone else and or be intimate or or be desired or flirt or any interact in any way.

The Kink Doctor: 13:53

So it could be it's flirting like flirting, even like what it would be a turn on to be out there, and then you send your partner to data is, from my understanding of, like the data that I've spoken to and witnessed, they're really into the being less important, being disregarded, and that's the power dynamic. It could be humiliation for some people and but that's not always part of the dynamic, right. That's why it's really particular to the people involved. Like for some people it's just a way of worshiping and like I am here to serve and my service is witnessing and understanding that the two of you get to do this and I don't. And for other people it's a humiliation, it's like a degradation thing. Like you don't get to touch me, don't even look at me.

The Kink Doctor: 14:37

You can be in the room. You know they can be like a beta male, can be like sitting in the corner or in a chair or something, can be silent, can be talking, but is typically watching and not getting to do the things that the other people are getting, because they are, for whatever reasons. The other people could just be talking completely clothed, and you know what I mean. So it could be anything but classically it's the. The beta is watching the other two have sex and is not getting to be have sexual pleasure, except really, like he probably is and maybe he's not allowed to touch himself, but he's probably fantasizing and enjoying or, like you know, getting off in some respect.

Annette Benedetti: 15:17

Right right Now we talk about the forcing and this is so I have not covered and I will do a whole podcast on consensual non consent, but can just briefly for my listeners. In case you're not familiar, consensual non consent correct me if I'm wrong, please is when a person wants to role play, being forced to do something sexual. So they're giving consent to be forced in the role play situation. So it's not truly non consensual. Is a role being played out. Is that consensual non consent an integral part to the cuckolding role I?

The Kink Doctor: 16:00

don't think so. I think that that's that's a style, like that's sort of a style of the role play. So there's also cuckolding outside of the kink community, like their words, that are used as this role play, like it can use this as this role play. But then there's also it's like a derogatory term historically outside of kink in the vanilla world, which means, like your wife is cheating on you, you're kind of you suck because you're you, you're a cuck, right, and that that's a derogatory, that's like a slur and in that respect, yeah, the cuck is being forced, actually forced, to just be in this situation he probably doesn't want to be in and that's why it's supposed to be emasculating, right.

Annette Benedetti: 16:46

I think also to be careful to not confuse. There is in the in-cell community this calling other men who aren't in cells. They enjoy calling them cucks and making it sound as though they're degraded, forced human beings, Exactly.

The Kink Doctor: 17:03

You know, like you said it's a degrading.

Annette Benedetti: 17:04

it's literally a non-consensually degrading term in the vanilla world when it's outside of the consensual role play.

The Kink Doctor: 17:12

So, however right I remember, the point of this is to emphasize that the forced part in kink it's never actually forced Someone, it's negotiated first, it's consented to it can actually be stopped at any time. You can go back to outside of the role play and it can end for any reason. But part of the scene, and like what everyone is pretending to do, is like this fantasy of forced interaction, which can make it feel really taboo, can make it feel really exciting.

Annette Benedetti: 18:35

I think a natural question is are the people who play the beta role in the cuckolding scene always beta in their real life?

The Kink Doctor: 18:47

Not necessarily. I mean nothing is always anything right. Some people like to be in a 24 seven dynamic, power dynamic and that can involve cuckolding and maybe you know there's a female-led relationship with a submissive male and it's that way all the time and usually in those kind of relationships they fluctuate in intensity anyway, because logistically it's kind of impossible, like you have to be really in a privileged situation financially and socially and everything to like do a high intensity 24 seven all the time. So usually people who are in that it fluctuates and like at the grocery store, like somebody could still be submissive but it's like usually stealth or like you know people other people wouldn't notice necessarily.

The Kink Doctor: 19:33

But all that to say is like sometimes people enjoy doing a role play where they're in a submissive or in a dominant role in the role play, even in outside of the role play, in like daily life. The rest of the time their, you know, their power roles fluctuate depending on the context or their equal peers all the time, which is really hard to do in the world that we live in because there are these power dynamics imposed on us that we, you know, have to deal with. But so, no, not necessarily it depends Like somebody could be the alpha male, let's say in the household with his partner, his wife or whatever, and then love doing being the beta male in. You know that's assuming that his wife also loves it. You know, that's great. Why not, you know? But it can be any of those configurations.

Annette Benedetti: 20:23

I think that sometimes people assume what we all like to do in quote the bedroom which doesn't is never restricted to the bedroom is how we are in our everyday life. And I think that's just such a fallacy and especially when it comes when we're talking about especially cisgendered men, like this idea that if you enjoy being a submissive or you know everything from cuckolding to cock and ball torture, to all of these other things in the quote bedroom, that means that in real life you know you're also passive or submissive. And it seems to me and again you can correct me if I'm wrong, at least from a lot of the research I've done that oftentimes people who are more dominant out in that, in the you know boardroom, so to speak, or the household, want that break when it comes to sexual activity.

The Kink Doctor: 21:21

Another thing that people should realize, and this this used to happen to me when I was a pro dom was one of my sex work jobs and I would be out at a party in that role. People would assume that, oh, they were submissive and so I must want to dominate them. No, that's not true. Like it's like. It's not like. Oh, so like I'm like what, if you know, just out in the world, I'm this gender, with this orientation. So therefore, anyone complimentary is a valid like, eligible to date me know, oh, that's like. That's not true. It's all about. You know, dominant people don't feel dominant over everyone, necessarily right and same with submissive people don't want to submit to just anybody. So the people involved in this role play, it's very much about the people that are in it or like, even if it's a hookup thing, like it has to work, there has to be chemistry and the roles need to work together and be complimentary, and so that's one thing. I think that's just important for people in general to know.

The Kink Doctor: 22:21

And then the other part you know about, you're saying like it is really common, I think again, I'll refer to my, you know, former job. A lot of my clients were people that had money because, let's face it, sex work can be really expensive and it's you get people paying for it who have extra money to throw around, right. And so those were a lot of powerful people with a lot of money and they wanted to be submissive, and I know. And so now we go back to the research and my job as a researcher and sexologist is I know from the research that engaging and kink can be a huge stress relief and like stepping outside of, like the role where there's so much pressure in daily life into a role where you make no decisions and somebody's doing things to you, can be just a huge release for people. And so it makes sense that people in these like high powered position in the world would want that.

The Kink Doctor: 23:11

Now to complicate that further, I want to remind people that we all have intersecting identities and so I think when we're talking about that person, we're thinking of like the powerful, like white cyst, straight man, because you know he's the most privileged and he would probably need the most release from that pressure and maybe would see a need to be submissive. And so there's probably lots of these powerful men out there that If they're not submissive already, maybe they should give it a shot, but all that to say, like you know, then you get somebody like I'll speak for myself.

The Kink Doctor: 23:44

Personally, I have an intersection of privileges and marginalized identities.

The Kink Doctor: 23:49

Like you know, I'm white, which is a privilege, and I hear that I'm pretty good looking Like maybe that depends on the context and who's asking or who's looking, but like that's also a privilege. Historically I used to be more conventionally attractive than I am now and otherwise, like I have these marginalized, you know, identities like being queer, being trans, honestly being out as kinky, being out as all the things, and so you know, probably that combination of things like for me, I prefer to be in a dominant power role in my relationships and so I have multiple relationships and it varies and like some of my partners, I'm very like peer and like we'll do role plays of this and other partners. There's more of a power dynamic, but for me, I am now in this privileged position in my job and like an authority and expert and everything, and so you could put me in the camp of like oh, this is a person who is in a position of power, who would like to submit in their off time as a release, but it's not the case for me.

Annette Benedetti: 24:53

Yeah, I think that we make a lot of assumptions about people and we're so complex, right, and we bring that all to then and it can shift and change. Well, for me it just changed. For you it sounds like you're pretty static where you're.

The Kink Doctor: 25:55

I'm like even within that it shifts and change over time, like the way that dominance or submission expresses can change. And so I want to make sure we keep talking about cuckolding. So, like even people who are like really into this dynamic and let's say they have long term partners, they're probably non monogamous for one thing because there's more than two people involved, and so usually cuckolding, if it's a long term thing, also means you're non monogamous. But you don't have to identify that way, like again, that's like a personal decision among partners, but the way that expresses over time, depending on like life circumstances or just the way someone's feeling, hormonal fluctuations across time, like all sorts of things you know, changes in jobs or like changes in family structure, whatever.

The Kink Doctor: 26:42

This can all affect what you want the role play to be. But maybe you still really love cuckolding. But what you do in it can change and I think that's really beautiful. I think it's. It's like a, it's a place where you can play and be creative and like feel like you know, express yourself the way you want to and like you know. But it can stay within that dynamic too.

Annette Benedetti: 27:02

Right I was going to talk about. I want to talk about cuckolding in relationship to non monogamy. It is technically a form of non monogamy because it involves bringing other people in for sex, but can that couple still consider themselves a monogamous couple in that it's literally just this is just the sex part, but we are the only two involved in our relationship, I think.

The Kink Doctor: 27:30

Consider themselves whatever they want Like I am not invested in labeling anybody in a way that they don't want to be labeled Like I. Just someone has to tell me how they identify and I will agree with that, because it's none of my business how they identify Right.

The Kink Doctor: 27:43

And so if, if a couple, or even let's say they're a triad, a cuckolding triad, comes to me and says, like you know, this alpha female and this beta male are the primary couple, and then their partner, their other partner, who comes in and like one name for that has been historically the bull, which is kind of like a lot of people think about now as a derogatory church, like kind of can be very racist and it can be a lot of things that are problematic, and so I that's why I don't like go to that word. The hot wife is a word for like that. I call her the alpha female or like the the femdom, or whatever. Usually it's like a femdom person. But yeah, those two, like the the femdom and the beta male, can be a monogamous married couple and this can be a person that a friend or, like you know, a hookup or a lover or whatever, who comes in for this particular role play. They can consider themselves monogamous.

The Kink Doctor: 28:43

Because what does monogamy mean? And like? I think that's as like a side, a brief side, tangent. When I do couples therapy with monogamous couples, I'll ask them like what, how do you define that for each other? And like, what does that mean to you, and it's a really useful exercise. I recommend it for anyone in any relationship structure to say, like you know, because typically in monogamous couples they have stepped into this scaffolding of relationship that's been created for them, like you know, however, many years ago, and that's when the assumptions are made and that's a real problem. That's why people aren't therapy, because a lot of times they're making assumptions that are incorrect and like they don't understand why. How could they be incorrect? And so if your monogamy is defined as, like, we are emotionally monogamous, monogamy means marriage, it means like we don't have conventional types of intimacies with other people and this being like something outside of that, or you know what I mean. It can mean anything, and so, yeah sure, they can be monogamous and do cuckolding. Why?

Annette Benedetti: 29:43

not have a recent episode on non monogamy where I brought in Feeblew, who's sort of like known as an expert on non monogamy, and she spoke about monogamy in terms of like a phone, you get it on and it comes with these default settings and monogamy has sort of been our relationship default settings and they're really outdated for all everything that life is now for us from well puritanical times. So you know, you can look at your default settings and start tweaking them right.

Annette Benedetti: 30:19

And call yourself whatever, but you're like this is what monogamy means to me, but you're going to get to touch another dick, you know. And it's still monogamous because we're still together and in love when we go home and go to bed together. And I think that's important to this conversation, because I think a lot of shame comes into fantasies Like, let's say there's a beta male out there or not. Even I don't want to say a beta male.

Annette Benedetti: 30:43

Let's say there's a cisgendered guy specifically because I think cisgendered heterosexual men struggle with having fantasies of things like being a cuckold Because they are so set in the mind frame of this is what it means to be in a relationship, and I'm supposed to feel this way about my, you know, cisgendered heterosexual wife and this is what it's supposed to look like. But I keep jacking off to ideas of like some dude banging her and me watching, and I mean I know this.

The Kink Doctor: 31:16

So guys will be like does that mean I'm gay or does that mean like I'm passive and all this stuff? And like, no, it doesn't have to mean anything, or maybe I don't know.

Annette Benedetti: 31:25

Right, but it's not a given. No, it doesn't. It doesn't have to mean that, and I think that that's the most important part of this conversation to moving forward. If you're someone, I don't care about your gender orientation, but you have this fantasy, but then you feel ashamed or feel like it means something wrong with you. The point is, those fantasies, acting them out, doesn't change. You get to decide. You could decide, like who you are, what your relationship is, who you are out in the world. If you want to come and role play and like be told what to do and watch your person have sex with someone else and that fulfills the two of you, then great, it doesn't mean, it definitely doesn't mean you're gay, like I don't know, I don't know how you make that leap, but Only thing.

The Kink Doctor: 32:14

Well, you know, we're conditioned, we're all conditioned with this idea of like you have to do things, like by in this particular way and like a man watching a man have sex is like outside of that rulebook and it's. And so if it's outside the rulebook, then like somebody could call you gay and like you know what that person's ridiculous. I'm just always so impressed and admire folks who know what they want, especially like it mainstream or not, like they know, they know they want this and they're going to go after it and they're not going to let somebody else whose business has got none of their business, get in the way, and I feel like that is really powerful. That's a really powerful person, you know.

Annette Benedetti: 32:54

I love that you say that, because I get quite a few emails from listeners who are in mainstream relationships, who maybe identify as heterosexual, who listen to the podcast and it resonates with fantasies and needs and wants they have and they reach out to say, wow, this conversation really struck a chord and now I know I need to move towards what I need and what I want and and to figure out how to, how to get there. And I think that is such a scary, scary hard thing for people to do, to choose a path of a life that is devoid of fulfillment, whether that's sexual or relationship wise with someone else or in relationship with yourself, or to like say I'm going to do the scary thing and break the quote norm. That's making me feel caged and I'm going to do the thing. And I think that this is one of those fetishes that I mean the stigma around it, but it's sexy as fuck to watch Like I don't know, and I think it's, and I think it's interesting as I watch it.

Annette Benedetti: 34:04

I think it's really sexy like that a in this, in the cases that I've seen a man would sit there and watch that and be in I don't know. I think it's really sexy. I don't, I and I don't find myself going. Oh, what a pathetic guy. I'm like dude hot.

The Kink Doctor: 34:23

Well, I mean that guy gets to watch live porn. So, you know that doesn't seem like. How is that?

Annette Benedetti: 34:28

No, I don't know.

The Kink Doctor: 34:29

You're a gator at all and like there's all, there's so many. So I know that in the beginning you're saying like why do I like this porn? And like I don't know that we're going to answer that, because that's like how can we? Honestly, I think the why is something a lot of people get fixated on and I personally don't think the why is all that important. I think people get fixated on that because they're worried about there's something wrong, like or unless they're like, oh, I want to learn something about myself and then go towards that. I love that reason for asking why.

The Kink Doctor: 35:04

But honestly, more often than not, and at least in the work that I do, it's been people worried and they want to be like why am I like this? Or why do I like this? Is there something wrong? And I have to explain it and like no, there's nothing wrong. So that aside, there's so many reasons why and like it depends on what you're into and because in this particular thing there's you just mentioned and we were talking about live porn there's an aspect of voyeurism, of exhibitionism, of like performance and getting witnessed as being really sexy or in control or powerful and, like you know, being allowed to watch that. You know there's so many reasons why somebody could be into it. You know, I don't know. What do you think is why there's not there? Why do I?

Annette Benedetti: 35:53

You know one thing yeah, one thing I talked about a lot on this podcast is I've had this journey specifically since starting this podcast, but really before then. It's why I started the podcast. But as I've interviewed more people and I've learned more about sex and I've met people doing all these different things in sex like, it was sort of like I opened the door to like some kinky stuff I liked and then the more that I learn about and witness and see things, the more I'm like oh well, that's hot too. When I start stripping the shame away from most things sexual, suddenly they all seem hot. You know, the shame is really what holds a lot of, I think, or at least holds me.

Annette Benedetti: 36:39

I should not speak for the rest of the world, but I think the shame is what has held me back from a lot of looking at a lot of different kinks as hot and sexy. Now there's just some stuff I don't. I will never I hope I'll never be into Like. I'm not into things that involve like blood play and some more extreme things. I'm not. You know, I have boundaries within my own life, but when it comes to things like this I mean, why wouldn't? Why can't it be hot? Why does it have to mean anything about any member involved. If everyone's consenting and everyone's doing it for each other's pleasure, right.

The Kink Doctor: 37:16

Exactly. And I wonder too, because if we're and you're talking about, if we're watching, if you're watching porn of this, this is one of the. This is not like mainstream porn, right? This is a different kind of a thing and I wonder, are the people doing this porn? I'm in my fantasy of, like your fantasy of the porn it's like because these people are really into it and that's why they've chosen to participate in, like filming this, this porn they're seeing and watching. Some people do some sex, sexy stuff, and they're really into it. It could be the thing, like, of how turned on these people are. Yes, that also turns you on. Like that could be one of the.

Annette Benedetti: 38:45

Yeah, I think it's an interesting dynamic too. I used to think I was just one kind of thing like I. There was a while where I was like I only want to be submissive in bed and then I realized oh, that's not true. That is not true. Like I'm, I like definitely enjoy being dominant. And then I just realized I love to shift into all different roles. I like I like doing lots of things, I like trying on different roles. I guess and and seeing what that's like, I think there's something really hot about being in the role of a woman, having her partner watch her.

The Kink Doctor: 39:26

I like definitely think about that sometimes, like the excitement of having my partner watch other men fuck me In that role like if, let's say, it's a cup holding scene and you're having sex with somebody and your partner like the person that you're having sex with could be dominating you or you could be dominating them.

Annette Benedetti: 39:42

Right.

The Kink Doctor: 39:42

And then the other. There could be like some kind of like multiple tiered hierarchy of power dynamics and and maybe that could switch and like maybe being witnessed in these different roles. You know, that's really sexy too.

Annette Benedetti: 39:56

So that would be one of my questions to probably one of the more exciting versions I like is the idea of being dominated and made to fuck someone else in front of my partner. Is that a form of cup holding, or is that a different thing?

The Kink Doctor: 40:10

Again, I'm going to go back to the very first thing I said, which was like, if that's what it means to you, then like yeah, that's cuckolding.

Annette Benedetti: 40:17

All right, I think I'm going to call that cuckolding.

The Kink Doctor: 40:20

I think I, and I also think, according to me, that it really qualifies, because I think that the cuckolding scenario is got involves three people.

The Kink Doctor: 40:33

One of them is the person that doesn't get to do any of the you know fucking, and then who's usually watching, or in the room or not allowed to participate, and then the other two people who are doing whatever they're doing.

The Kink Doctor: 40:49

And so if you're asking me, like that's the power dynamics are integral, and like these three parties are integral in the scene yeah, Unless it's just verbal, but like we're talking about like the classic scene, and so then what the power roles of the other two people that are doing like the more you know doing the fucking is like sure it could be, it could be that, and so I think it really depends and I think those are both pretty.

The Kink Doctor: 41:19

I think both of those scenarios where there's like this dominant man who's dominating you and then your submissive partner has to watch, I think that's a pretty popular one. I think the one where it's the femdom who's having sex with the other you know person and the other you know who's like maybe their peers or lovers, and it's not a power dynamic, but it kind of is, because she's got her husband and she's convinced this guy, convinced with air quotes, right that her husband's going to be there watching. Like there's just all these permutations and I think that those are all totally valid and done by people like you know, yeah they fall under the umbrella.

Annette Benedetti: 41:54

It's an umbrella because I've definitely watched every last one of the scenes you've just mentioned before in my, in my porn adventures and I'm like I find them all very interesting. But this brings me to can we talk about? Are there benefits to couples, let's say couples, or even the individuals who try this out or are involved in this? Are there some things that this dynamic can bring to individuals and couples?

The Kink Doctor: 42:24

In general, anytime we find ourselves drawn to something that's not our usual thing, you know, and decide to explore it.

The Kink Doctor: 42:36

I think the benefits include like learning more skills about communication and negotiation and consent, because that's involved, and I think anytime you have to practice that outside of your comfort zone, you're going to learn stuff about how to do that, and those are super useful in sex, you know, in daily life, whatever and so learning about those skills. And then the other thing is learning about yourself and finding out some things about yourself, getting to know yourself better, like what you, what you like, what you don't like. Maybe you try it and you're like why didn't it quite like that? But that makes me think I might want to try this or whatever, like a permutation of it. So you're learning about, about yourself and getting you know. It's like I think it's a form of self actualization, actually, when you you are curious about something and you, like you know, think about well, are there people I want to do this with you? Talk to them? Yeah, they want to do it. Like the whole process I think can be really super enriching for people. Yeah, actually.

Annette Benedetti: 43:40

Yeah, I think when you are able to talk to your partner about fantasies and work together if one of you has a fantasy or role play situation you want to try and you're able to talk and then work through it especially if the other person is like I don't know if I want to, like, do that that it's going to strengthen your relationship. And and I think also when you dip your toe in the water, you know, I think watching your partner have sex with someone else is a big deal and if it's something you do and don't like and you're able to then still move through that and and keep your relationship smooth and just see it as an experience and talk about it and figure it out, that you come out the other side in a stronger relationship.

The Kink Doctor: 44:35

Totally and I want to emphasize to that, you know it's. I feel like it's really important not to gloss over the initial what's called discovery phase, like before you even decide to do it and let's say you have you identify like cuckolding is really hot and I want to do this with my partner. You, you bring it up to your partner. I recommend, like at a neutral time, not during or right before sex, but like at a time where you can feel like relaxed and not pressured. You talk about it, your partner's like that sounds great.

The Kink Doctor: 45:07

Let's totally do that Before you actually start, you know, before you start taking the steps to make it happen. I recommend really staying in this early spot to think of like what will we need, Like you know what would be what's going to be the ideal setup for us to make us feel safe and comfortable and cared for, and like really setting it up for success, because just jumping into the role play with skipping over that could create lots of conflicts and like pain maybe, or like you might be like oh, I didn't realize I would feel this way or something, and you want to have contingencies and you want to like know how you're going to care for each other and, like you know what, try to anticipate what some of those things are. That's so I'm just recommending not to gloss over that part.

Annette Benedetti: 45:57

All right. So for people who do want to sort of give cuckolding a try, can we talk them through maybe some stages to actually getting to the room with someone banging your partner in front of you, or are they? Are things that you're going to be able to do? So if you're one of you, are there things you can do, kind of to prepare yourself beyond what you just said try first and then to get to the actual experience?

The Kink Doctor: 46:22

Yeah, I mean, like I said, I think I started doing that so, like you know, making sure everybody's on board and into it, and then like so, raising the topic and saying like, okay, yeah, and then saying, but the next step being, like, let's get clear on what we mean by that, since, as we discussed, it can mean so many different things and what that can look like is comparing fantasies about it, which can be really hot and can lead to other kinds of sex like that. You know, that happen when partners get excited together and then deciding like okay, I think this would be the one we both agree on, that we would both really enjoy this. Like the way that this plays out and like really talk about each part of it, like how would it start, who would it be? Like where would it happen? Like what, what do we envision? Like the whole, all the way through to the end, because a lot of people think like, oh well, I want to be in sex in general. A lot of people think, being impulsive or, like you know, improvising, like that's, those things are going to happen. Anyway, if you do that in a really well thought out and established kind of container trajectory, you're still going to get to have like surprises and exciting things and innovations and all of that, but in fact you're going to have more room to do it because you've really been clear about what can happen and what can't happen. That really opens things up. Sometimes people think that shuts it down. It really does the opposite. It opens it up.

The Kink Doctor: 47:57

So, anyway, so getting clear on what it is, talking it all the way through and then and then going into it, like, okay, do we anticipate any issues coming up? Like, do we think there's going to be any jealousy or, like you know any feelings about these different things? What do we want to do if this isn't somebody we know very well that we want to invite? Like, do we want to ask for STI testing? Like, what do we want to do with this? And you know really kind of thinking about these things, because these could be barriers and again, when these things are figured out, then you have much more room to play. What kind of aftercare is our people going to need? Everyone involved, right? Like, what do people need?

The Kink Doctor: 48:45

If you're feeling insecure about it. What would make you feel more secure? And this could take a while to figure out, it could take months or it could take not that long, I don't know, but it's like I don't know what. This makes me feel like a little jealous or a little insecure, like, okay, what in our relationship can we do to make you feel more secure, like, and then that's can be so lovely for it, like, even if you never got to the scene, like you did that and your relationship is already improved because you understand something about your partner, what they need in your relationship, right, and so I think all of that is really due diligence.

The Kink Doctor: 49:19

Before getting to this scene that you've agreed on that you really like, and then getting into the logistics phase after all that stuff is set Like you know, how are we going to plan this out and all of that, let's say you did it and you planned it and you went and it's not going the way that you thought it was going to. Then to stop it or keep doing it if it's fun. But don't think like, oh, that that wasn't for me, unless you're like, that definitely wasn't for me. Just be like it wasn't the way I thought it was going to be Like the spoiler is. It's not going to.

The Kink Doctor: 49:50

There's a difference between reality and fantasy, and it's going to be different than your fantasy, but it could be just as good or better or maybe different, and maybe you want to tweak it, so it might actually take a few tries to get closer to the thing that you really want. You're going to learn something in the process that you wouldn't have been able to imagine ahead of time.

Annette Benedetti: 50:09

I love that, and I love that you brought up the piece about asking your partner what do you need? To feel more secure? I don't feel like we do that enough in relationship with other people.

Annette Benedetti: 50:23

And so many of us are running around with trauma, abandonment trauma, like you know, attachment trauma and we, we all know this and talk about it, but we never stopped to say, okay, well, what can I do to make you feel more secure and at least hear it and figure out if that's something you can provide. I think that, especially trying different situations out when you're in a partnership with someone like that, that is something that's really important.

The Kink Doctor: 50:55

It is, and each person should do that. I'm saying should because I it's my own personal opinion I believe people should, each person should ask their partner. If you're somebody in the relationship is feeling insecure, you're probably less likely to feel comfortable asking that, and so if your partner asks you, that's great and then actually you can actually say something. It's okay to ask for something. It's good. It's good for your relationship.

Annette Benedetti: 51:22

The cuckoldings of relationship builder.

The Kink Doctor: 51:24

All right, that's maybe a service announcement today, you didn't know.

Annette Benedetti: 51:30

This is this is what we wanted to get you to that go out and cuckold, you will have a better relationship. Right, that's a massive statement.

The Kink Doctor: 51:38

Unless you don't want to, unless you don't want to, unless you don't want to.

Annette Benedetti: 51:42

I think experimentation in general is wonderful. Any aftercare suggestions for people who have to? Let's say, they've gone. They just had their first cuckolding situation. They've gone back to their home together and they're staring at each other. What's a good idea, I mean?

The Kink Doctor: 51:59

this. This is another. It depends on the people involved and they're going to know what they need. This is the answer to that question. But usually it's whatever activities. Maybe it's alone time, but often it can be together time.

The Kink Doctor: 52:12

That's in like a more typical environment, like doing kind of things that make them feel back to baseline, like cooking dinner together or going out to eat or, like you know, just talking and cuddling, talking about how it went, what they liked, what they didn't like, or watching TV together and definitely not talking about it.

The Kink Doctor: 52:31

It's like doing something that feels kind of like quote unquote, normal together and so that if one person you know because if you don't do that, then sometimes the stigma and shame can like come into the space where that would have been and make make it not a great experience. So that can actually aftercare, can actually mean the difference between having had a good in hindsight, like having had a good experience, or not. And so when you interact with your partner and you're like that was great, we did a cool thing, Like I love that we did that together, or like it was okay and like here's what we could do better next time, or like we didn't really want to do that. But we are good together and like we want to do other stuff and I'm glad we tried it and you know it's just kind of like that mutual, like you know, talking about it, I think that's really important.

Annette Benedetti: 53:19

I love that and I'm going to ask a question I should have asked before do you have suggestions on where to find your third Like an ideal first third, like in my thought, and I could be wrong. Maybe choosing your best friend isn't the ideal like first third to try.

The Kink Doctor: 53:39

Well, probably not. But, like you know, I would never say I wouldn't rule anything out. I think that if you were going to ask your best friend, maybe you intuitively know that you've gotten some signals that maybe there's more than platonic. You know there's some interest or there's some flirting, but that's if you want to keep having like that best friend. Your relationship is going to change, probably in most cases. So, yeah, maybe you want to think about that, but, right, I don't know, I can't tell people where to go find dates like people. There's apps that people.

The Kink Doctor: 54:12

I recommend being really transparent about it and not not trying to trick anyone into doing something. I would say transparently, this is what we're into. We're looking for somebody who's equally as into it as we are and we want to talk about it. You know, do you want to talk about this? And you can do that on an app, like on a non monogamy app, maybe as good, like I hear people are using field for non monogamy, not like for cuckolding, but just like there are different apps for that. You could go on FetLife, I guess, and like there you could see, look for there's certainly groups that are chatting about it and like you can see who's in the group or like who's near you, and but it really depends on how people like to interact with other people, right so? But I think I want to emphasize is to be transparent and to be really consent focused and not like pressuring anyone and not trying to like coerce anyone or tell them it's something else and it's this, or you know. Yes.

Annette Benedetti: 55:13

Thank you so much. Are there any last thoughts you have for listeners before we say goodbye?

The Kink Doctor: 55:20

No, but I'm just really excited that people are listening and like that means that they're curious about their sexuality and they want to explore or at least hear about it, and I think that's awesome. You're all awesome for listening, so that's all.

Annette Benedetti: 55:31

Yes, thank you for listening, and can you let my listeners know where to find you if they want to know more about you or get in contact with you?

The Kink Doctor: 55:40

Yeah, so I have. My local to New York website is dulcineyapetagoracom, but the easier one to remember is kinkdoctorcom, which is a more not location based and it also links to my local site. So it's fine. And then my handle on social media is usually kinkdoctor.

Annette Benedetti: 55:57

Yes, and you will want. You mentioned so much upfront at the beginning of this podcast that I think that you're doing that will be of use to my listeners. So make sure you brush up on that and make sure you follow them, and I want to thank you today for joining me and taking the time to explain cut holding to me and to my listeners. I appreciate you.

The Kink Doctor: 56:20

Oh yeah, my pleasure, it was really fun.

Annette Benedetti: 56:23

Yes, and to my listeners, until next time. I'll see you in the locker room. Cheers.